Salvia Divinorum and Brain Damage

This is the place to discuss Salvia divinorum, splendins, and the other psychoactive salvias.
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Metanoian
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Re: Salvia Divinorum and Brain Damage

Post by Metanoian » Tue Jun 02, 2015 2:48 pm

I do understand stories like these, and d11's (whom I'm very familiar with lol) that something as powerful as Salvia could have some lasting negative effects. It's just the tone in which the message is delivered that I disagree with. It insinuates that just because they've experienced negative effects from their use of the plant that everyone else should also avoid it all costs and that it's completely useless (or devoid of meaning as the OP insinuates). This plant has completely changed my brain and the way I see the world, there is no denying that. I have been a regular user for many years now and I often wonder about the 'restructuring' of my brain, as I call it. It is possible that an experience like a Salvia trip could initiate some sort of learned reaction. Where your sub/conscious mind is so terrified of returning to the place you experienced on that Salvia trip that you would experience panic attacks or severe anxiety. All that said, the opposite is true for me.

I've had all sorts of experiences with this plant, including the dark void where nothing exists. I've had negative entity contact, I even had a series of strange 'abduction' type trips. The constant deja vu and derealization, sure. Does it affect my life negatively? No. I find all of it, the trips, the after effects (whatever they are), extremely fascinating. I have the ability to detach from it and view it objectively. To study it, in a sense. I've never been really overwhelmed by feelings of derealization or depersonalization. I had these feelings before I ever ingested Salvia, so perhaps I'm better equipped to handle it.

I enjoy far more positive effects from this plant. I don't want to belittle others experiences but I feel this plant is much more of a healer than anything else. I feel that anyone who would be so severely affected in a negative way by Salvia probably should not be ingesting any psychoactive substances. Anyone with a predisposition to mental illness or some preexisting condition, that they may or may not be aware of.

In my case (and admittedly many others) this plant is very benign. I've only experienced some of the things the OP mentioned with daily use. It has helped immensely in alleviating severe depression I struggled with for many years, greatly improving my quality of life. Integrating the lessons imparted by this plant can be extremely challenging. It often seems nonsensical and meaningless, or is obscured by a veil of something seemingly meaningless. The same experience can repeat over and over and over, until your conscious mind comes to some realization or some small detail suddenly comes into focus and it all makes sense. Out of every other substance I've taken, Salvia is definitely the most peculiar and mysterious. It's no wonder people demonize it so readily, they fail miserably at understanding it.
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unsigned_char72
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Re: Salvia Divinorum and Brain Damage

Post by unsigned_char72 » Wed Jun 03, 2015 10:03 am

Metanoian wrote:It often seems nonsensical and meaningless, or is obscured by a veil of something seemingly meaningless. The same experience can repeat over and over and over, until your conscious mind comes to some realization or some small detail suddenly comes into focus and it all makes sense.
I've been re-reading this last sentence of your, it's motivating me to continue on the exploration.

Salvia is the perfect entheogen under all aspects, I am sure of this, but if there's something to complain, it's the fact that I'm not able to carry with me lasting effects of any sort. So when I read post like this or d11, I can't avoid to wish it happened to me (well... perhaps in a lighter form! :D ).

I wonder if I should change my approach of waiting for her calls, and visit her more often. Currently she calls me few times in a year.

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SixthWheel
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Re: Salvia Divinorum and Brain Damage

Post by SixthWheel » Sat Jun 06, 2015 3:39 am

Feel free to read those past posts unsigned_char, I'm actually really surprised to see they made it to the new site, I thought all this time that they had been lost into the void..

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Re: Salvia Divinorum and Brain Damage

Post by entheist » Mon Sep 07, 2015 9:09 pm

...but if there's something to complain, it's the fact that I'm not able to carry with me lasting effects of any sort.
Your normal memory of the experiences is all the lasting effect you should want. As so many others have found, you'd eventually come to regret anything more than that.
Instead of wishing to be hit on the head with a hammer --which would be disloyal to the benign nature of the plant, and reflect poorly on your use (abuse) of it-- why not do the work yourself and meditate on the gifts/visions offered to you. Be satisfied with gentle experiences that are accessible to the psyche, and work at integrating them seamlessly into your everyday life. It's not the intent of the plant to have you lose sight of who you are, but to gently guide you to deeper ways of seeing. If your earth is not shaking, you are on the right path. Subtle, well-assimilated changes that you consciously worked for are ultimately the most positive and powerful.

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unsigned_char72
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Re: Salvia Divinorum and Brain Damage

Post by unsigned_char72 » Wed Sep 09, 2015 11:18 am

Thanks for the encouraging words! Sometimes I approach her with lot of expectations (which are promptly disappointed).

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Metanoian
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Re: Salvia Divinorum and Brain Damage

Post by Metanoian » Mon Sep 14, 2015 5:00 pm

I am living proof that this plant causes permanent changes. It certainly has that capability. The shamans who use Salvia have said that sometimes, just sometimes, a person won't come back from the Salvia realm. Perhaps that is what they mean...you might come back alive but you will not be the same.

The changes it has caused in me are overwhelmingly positive; that being the difference between myself and whoever wrote the OP. It was literally like the opposite of what has been described in this thread by the OP and SixthWheel. Indeed there was a breaking point, a crack/snap/whip. Then everything was white, white, white. Completely white void. I thought I had died. I mourned the loss of my family and loved ones, of my wasted life, even my beloved pets :D Soon even all that was gone and I could remember nothing of my life or what I was. Then it all came back, I returned to my body and I felt reborn, like I had a second chance.

I have had recurring instances of deja vu and depersonalization/derealization since I was a young child, so it is not unfamiliar to me. My use of Salvia has increased the frequency of these experiences but I have learned to deal with them very efficiently. Perhaps because I learned to deal with them in some fashion before even finding Salvia...?

The effect Salvia has had on my dream states is beyond question as well. Again, nothing negative to report.

Salvia definitely isn't for everyone. It is a very unique and bizarre plant. I think stories like these (and even my own) are mostly due to massive overdoses of salvinorin A, or dosing in combination with other substances (like the OP being drunk, and d11 being on some benzo or other pharmaceutical if I remember correctly) It has the potential to seriously school you, and can permanently change you. But if more people approached it with respect and used mainly the plain leaf or low-end extracts I'm sure the dangers could be easily mitigated. Salvia is not something you can abuse, that is for certain.
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Interconnecting peoploids, like tinker toy ferris wheels, rotating counterclockwise for eternity.

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Re: Salvia Divinorum and Brain Damage

Post by jbmac » Tue Sep 15, 2015 5:10 pm

I think salvia dissolves the ego and makes you one with the universe, I smoke it every year of so

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unsigned_char72
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Re: Salvia Divinorum and Brain Damage

Post by unsigned_char72 » Wed Sep 16, 2015 12:46 pm

@Metanoian: regarding derealization/depersonalization, since you experience it first-hand, I often read people describing it as an unbearable experience, but actually what makes it so hard to stand? How would you describe it? I ask because DP/DR looks (to me that never experienced it) like a sort of spiritual enlightenment.

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Re: Salvia Divinorum and Brain Damage

Post by Bardo-sojourn » Thu Sep 21, 2017 8:45 am

Salvinorins are unique compounds in the world of psychedelics, they are trans-neo-clerodane diterpenoids, they are not alkaloids, they contain no nitrogen, and are composed of only oxygen, hydrogen, and carbon. As far as molecular structure is concerned, the salvinorins resemble Delta-9-tetrahydrocannabinol and the other cannabinoid compounds, with their terpenoid dibenzopyran molecular structure, more than they resemble any traditional psychedelic compound.

Another unique feature, and a more important feature of these compounds, is that these compounds are selective high efficacy kappa-opioid receptor (KOPr) agonists, where as traditional psychedelics are primarily 5HT2a/c receptor agonists.

Salvinorins, when used properly, actually have medical potential as anti-depressants, as outlined below:
Salvinorin A is the only selective KOPr ligand to be widely available outside research or medical settings, and salvinorin A-containing products have undergone frequent non-medical use. KOPr/dynorphin systems in the brain are known to be powerful counter-modulatory mechanisms to dopaminergic function, which is important in mood and reward engendered by natural and chemical reinforcers (including drugs of abuse). KOPr activation (including by salvinorin A) can thus cause aversion and anhedonia in preclinical models. Salvinorin A is also a completely new scaffold for medicinal chemistry approaches, since it is a non-nitrogenous neoclerodane, unlike other known opioid ligands. Ongoing efforts have the goal of discovering novel semi-synthetic salvinorin analogs with potential KOPr-mediated pharmacotherapeutic effects (including partial agonist or biased agonist effects), with a reduced burden of undesirable effects associated with salvinorin A.

http://journal.frontiersin.org/article/ ... 00190/full
Case Report

Ms. G is a 26-year-old woman with a history of depression that has shown no significant periods of remission since adolescence and has been predominated by feelings of worthlessness, lack of interest in social activities, an absence of occupational satisfaction, and inability to find "purpose and meaning" in her life. After first seeking treatment for her depression 5 years ago Ms. G was prescribed sertraline, 50 mg daily, which she self-discontinued after 3 months, reporting no significant benefits. Ms. G then underwent a course of cognitive-behavioural therapy for about 6 months, with some improvement but no definitive resolution of her symptoms. Hamilton Depression Rating Scale (HAM-D 1 ) scores during the 6-month period of cognitive-behavioural therapy were consistently in the moderately depressed range (i.e. 19–21).

During a review consultation some 7 months after discontinuing cognitive-behavioural therapy Ms. G claimed to have found relief from her symptoms of depression with use of the herb salvia divinorum sourced through a mail-order herbal supplier. A HAM-D score of 2 confirmed remission of her symptoms of depression at this time. Ms. G claims that she discovered its antidepressant effects accidentally after smoking the herb and had later developed a method of oral consumption which she claimed maintained its antidepressant effects even after she abstained from using it for up to a week.

Despite being cautioned against use of a herb whose safety profile was unknown, she has continued to use a preparation of salvia divinorum leaves taken as an oral dose of 2–3 leaves (1/2 to 3/4 of a gram of leaf material) three times per week (the leaves are chewed and held in the mouth for 15–30 minutes). During this period she has continued to show a total remission of her symptoms of depression according to HAM-D scores in the range of 0–2 and has maintained this improvement for the last 6 months, showing no signs of relapse and reporting only minimal side effects, such as occasional lightheadedness for up to 1 hour after using the herb.

Ms. G volunteered that she has also benefited from occasional intoxicating oral doses of salvia divinorum, consisting of from 8–16 leaves of the herb (approximately 2 to 4 grams), claiming that this herb had engendered a kind of "psychospiritual" awakening, characterized by the discovery of the depth of her sense of self, greater self-confidence, increased feelings of intuitive wisdom and "connectedness to nature."
https://www.erowid.org/plants/salvia/sa ... nal3.shtml
Salvinorin-a is a compound which holds a special place in my heart. As does the salvia divinorum plant itself. So naturally a thread with such a title was concerning, can a kappa opioid receptor agonist induce something like HPPD? Regardless, it's quite rare to hear of such experiences where an individual would experience permanent long term damage from use of this compound, this is the first I have heard of it any way. If abuse of salvia can lead to such things I would want to know about, and am still quite curious regarding the matter. As this thread was quite long I only skimmed through, reading what I gleaned to be the more important text, so it's possible I missed something.

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