IT'S THE CLONES!!! THE CLONES!!!

This is the place to discuss Salvia divinorum, splendins, and the other psychoactive salvias.
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burningmouth
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Re: IT'S THE CLONES!!! THE CLONES!!!

Post by burningmouth » Fri Jul 27, 2012 4:08 pm

HeadFullDMT wrote:Does it really have to be a copy? Or can we be patched up to a higher version of ourself? More soul essence inserted so to speak = Human 2.1 for example.
A kind of Jacob's ladder, climbing up to soul level.
This is a bit off topic, but what the hell.
You can now download entire albums off Youtube, so I decided to download some of Rolling Stone's greatest albums of all time. Well, after downloading a bunch, I decided to listen to them. THEY KINDA SUCKED. Also, the sound quality was horrible. We never should have given up the old 33 rpm albums with the big artistic covers that you could actually look at while listening to the music.

So anyway. After the album disappointment, I decided to download some Buddhist lectures. I stumbled across this guy 'Pasada' talking about the 'Heart Sutra'. One thing that salvia does is mimic the Buddhist ego wiping during meditation. Also, in the Heart Sutra, One of the major themes is the idea of how everything is in a flux. Nothing is permanent, everything is constantly in the process of becoming/winding down.

My salvia visuals show something similar to things in a flux. My visuals are constantly moving, constantly changing. I wonder if salvia is showing us the flux or impermanence of objectified reality? Also, I always get a salvia feeling of some kind of background peace or equanimity when I do plain leaf. Maybe salvia is showing me the Buddhist (non)concept of 'emptiness'?

Can we be patched up to a higher version of ourself?

Yeah, maybe we can be patched up during the actual salvia experience, but I can't say that we remain patched up after we come down. I always return to the same old fucked up, loser slob I was before the trip. Maybe incrementally we patch ourselves up without our knowing it's happening.

I downloaded "Never Mind the Bollocks" because I was a late comer to the whole Sex Pistols thing. When I listen to it now, those kids wern't all that radical. They were just a bunch of kids having a good time. And the music was pretty good too. I wonder if they'll play at the Olympic opening ceremonies? I DOUBT IT. :)

burningmouth, out. Back to my boring life. :)

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HeadFullDMT
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Re: IT'S THE CLONES!!! THE CLONES!!!

Post by HeadFullDMT » Fri Jul 27, 2012 6:11 pm

burningmouth wrote: I wonder if salvia is showing us the flux or impermanence of objectified reality?
Yeah, i can see what you mean by that. Salvia exposes us to possible realities and we can tune in those realities for a short amount of time.
Hence the everchanging visuals until we seem to be able to lock down on one of them temporarily. What makes us lock down?!
We'll ride the spiral to the end and may just go where no ones has been. Spiral out, keep going

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salvialover24
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Re: IT'S THE CLONES!!! THE CLONES!!!

Post by salvialover24 » Tue Jul 31, 2012 3:14 am

It does not need to be a copy. In fact, for a mechanist (a computationalist), "we" have as many bodies than there are possible exact copies, in slightly different computations, so that the notion of exact copy of oneself has no absolute sense, only a relative one. I guess you and I are already differentiated copies, son of our ancestral amoeba.
We call the higher self "higher", but I can believe (without any certainty), that such an higher self is somehow "lower", or deeper. It is "each of us" when the amnesic or dissociative effect reduces us into a universal sort of baby, which is why we can look like "retard". Did not the bible say that the simple mind go to heaven? The little ego is only the higher self when being amnesic of its original state, due to the contextual memories hiding its true nature, perhaps. Children and animals might be closer to <no-name> than human adults, I can think sometimes. It is a chance that nature use neoteny, and that human have a very long childhood. Without it I would think even more that entheogen and religion are morbid and against life and nature, but neoteny illustrates that life can benefit in the long run of the non productive contemplative exploration, even if getting "enlighten" is a form of death. But I have no definite opinion in those matter, and even a lot of conflicting one ...

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HeadFullDMT
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Re: IT'S THE CLONES!!! THE CLONES!!!

Post by HeadFullDMT » Tue Jul 31, 2012 8:06 am

salvialover24 wrote: We call the higher self "higher", but I can believe (without any certainty), that such an higher self is somehow "lower", or deeper. It is "each of us" when the amnesic or dissociative effect reduces us into a universal sort of baby, which is why we can look like "retard".
Could several "extracts" from the "ultimate self" be in the same reality? Like a soul-group. Not with the same body ofcourse that would be a little odd.

salvialover24 wrote: The little ego is only the higher self when being amnesic of its original state, due to the contextual memories hiding its true nature, perhaps.
That makes very much sense. The possibilites are playing out and the soul oversees it. The ego taps into one possibility and we experience a "reality".
While zoomed in into a fractal reality the ego tends to think it is born in that reality.

Image

We live in this kind of box, i'm telling ya! I've read numerous reports where Salvianauts are coming out of being put into a box of "reality".
We'll ride the spiral to the end and may just go where no ones has been. Spiral out, keep going

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burningmouth
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Re: IT'S THE CLONES!!! THE CLONES!!!

Post by burningmouth » Tue Jul 31, 2012 5:44 pm

I've wondered why some people see humanoids connected together while tripping. Not just humanoids, but all kinds of replicated, interconnected imagery.

This idea of connectedness might have something to do with "dependent arising", a Buddhist concept about how every-thing's existence is dependent on a multitude of factors.
Dependent arising can be seen in a sheet of paper. The paper is dependent on a tree which is dependent on rain which is dependent on clouds, etc.

I had an interesting insight. I always wondered why 'something' exists rather than 'nothing'. How come the universe is here? Why isn't it all Nothingness? Well, the Buddhists say that neither Being nor Non Being exists. If Non Being does not exist, then that would mean Nothingness doesn't exist. If Nothingness doesn't exist, then it would be impossible for the universe/multiverse not to exist. But neither does Being exist, therefore, human beings and other objects have no true sense of self or own-being. All objects are ephemeral, constantly being reshaped by the dependent factors around them. We are somehow halfway between Being and Non Being.

########################


I'm starting to lose faith in salvia. I was certain that salvia was going to revolutionize the world. Shit. "5 hour energy" has a better shot at revolutionizing the world.
Image
We need a salvia marketing campaign. How about a bottle of "5 Minute Enlightenment", available at your local market?
Image
"Hello Bart."
"Hey Apu. Do you have any K2?"
"K2? What's that? Some type of sex lube?
"No Apu. It's a legal high."
"Stay away from that stuff, Bart. Here. Try this new salvia concoction. "5 Minute Enlightenment". Nelson has been using it for years."
Image

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salvialover24
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Re: IT'S THE CLONES!!! THE CLONES!!!

Post by salvialover24 » Wed Aug 01, 2012 3:39 am

LOL
Still stuck in the "theological trap" dear burning?
As long as you want to use salvia to make change in the world, you will miss the point, perhaps.
Salvia teaching seems beyond the world, and beyond any mundane attempts to change it.
It is beyond life and death. Beyond time and space. We are lucky to have the mean to get a glimpse of that. Enjoy.

(Now, if you believe in elementary arithmetic, as I am sure you do, I can provide an explanation to you why there is consciousness and why and how the beliefs in physical worlds appear, but I cannot explain to you what are the numbers, and where did the numbers come from, but then I can explain why it has to be like that. This is not a priori related to salvia, but I'm not sure. Despite some obvious evidences, the entities there are mute about computationalism).

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salvialover24
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Re: IT'S THE CLONES!!! THE CLONES!!!

Post by salvialover24 » Wed Aug 01, 2012 3:54 am

HeadFullDMT wrote:
That makes very much sense. The possibilites are playing out and the soul oversees it. The ego taps into one possibility and we experience a "reality".
Yes.
HeadFullDMT wrote: While zoomed in into a fractal reality the ego tends to think it is born in that reality.
Yes. What is not clear for me is if that illusion was necessary for the evolution of life or not. Can we live hereby without it? What is the part of lie in nature? Why do we have to produce things? Cannot we just contemplate? Is biology part of theology? Or are they antinomic? Some antinomy there might explain the secrecy.

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Re: IT'S THE CLONES!!! THE CLONES!!!

Post by Jupe » Wed Aug 01, 2012 8:36 pm

Or perhaps the reverse is true......our theology comes with our seemingly specific and peculiar biology of our "brains" whatever they turn out to be........or arises out of language use? some think its hard wired.

I tend to think existence is almost a proof in and of itself, although hard core atheists and scientists dont buy that.....I'm on the fence, agnostic till the next SD journey....

Animals, (i guess is hard for them to tell us ) dont seem to have the same sorts of issues.

As Laurie Anderson was sang "language is a virus"

yeah Burning...that whole "something instead of nothing" occupies my thoughts a fair amount....even when stuck in the middle of the something, makes me remember how big the "nothing" is....or maybe not....without time, maybe just a little blink and it starts again....i dunno......

this something vs nothing is in the news and web discussions....
Lawrence Krauss has written an interesting book on the subject, with a compilation of peoples opinions, scientists, religious folks etc....

google up "A Universe from Nothing".........


oh and edit to add this..http://www.entheogen-network.com/forums ... 12#p222512


.discussion from a few years back...Numinects post reflects on some of the cloning/peopling/software options aspects of what Head Full and Burning and SD 240000 were discussing..


Jupe

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salvialover24
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Re: IT'S THE CLONES!!! THE CLONES!!!

Post by salvialover24 » Thu Aug 02, 2012 3:38 am

Biology needs carbon, which needs matter, which can only be a theological "illusion", provably so once we assume that our brain (or our generalized brain: portion of reality needed to manifest our consciousness for ourselves) works like a digital machine. This is what the Universal Dovetailer Argument (UDA) is supposed to convince you (or any rational agent).

Since 1500 years the general idea is that there is a physical universe, and then the rest (biology, psychology, theology, ...) emerges from layer or material organizations. But if we assume mechanism, this view can be shown to be inconsistent, and we can show that theology and consciousness arise from a natural matrix of numbers dreams canonically existing in arithmetic, as a consequence of the laws of addition and multiplication. The physical laws originates in that matrix, not by being simulated by it, but from a first person indeterminacy statistics bearing on all infinitely many computations going through our states. So instead of the usual paradigm:

Physical world ===> biological reality ===> psychological reality ===> theological discourses

We have the quasi-opposite (assuming mechanism):

Number reality ===> universal consciousness/theology ===> biology ===> physical realities/illusions

This makes mechanism testable, as the way physics originates and develop is entirely constrained by numbers and self-reference logic, so that we can test the physics derived from numbers and theology with the observable physics, and up to now the test confirms the computationalist (but not computational!) physics. Actually quantum mechanics saves computationalism, for the comp physics cannot be Newtonian, and the quantum weirdness is easily qualitatively explained by the first person indeterminacy.

Is that true? In science we never know if some proposition are true, but we can prove propositions in theories, that is, once we postulate axioms. Here we postulate that the brain is a machine, and then anybody patient enough, and aware of the mind-body problem, can understand that Aristotle/Plato. Of course not *all* academics are glad with that, and despite already published in the eighties, there is as some resistance (some old explanation in the wikipedia on this has disappeared, for example, including the discussions, a long time ago). It is like Everett formulation of QM, described by Martin Gardner as the best kept secret of the 20th century.

With mechanism (alias computationalism, comp) we already are in a immaterial "matrix", which has a precise mathematical structure, and the laws of physics logically evolves through coherence conditions of statistical dream sharing and gluing. Physics is no more the fundamental science, with comp. Comp makes machine or number "theology" (arithmetic, computer science and computer's computer science) the new fundamental science.

Thanks for the recall of Numinect great post indeed, Jupe. I certainly hope his conclusion are correct :)

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HeadFullDMT
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Re: IT'S THE CLONES!!! THE CLONES!!!

Post by HeadFullDMT » Thu Aug 02, 2012 12:25 pm

Jupe wrote:

oh and edit to add this..http://www.entheogen-network.com/forums ... 12#p222512

Lol, what are the odds! This is a weird forum to say the least. Real Magic in here.
We'll ride the spiral to the end and may just go where no ones has been. Spiral out, keep going

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