Idea of brain paradox

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Re: Idea of brain paradox

Post by salvialover24 » Sun Mar 04, 2012 9:52 am

unsigned_char72 wrote:
salvialover24 wrote:It is a side effect of salvia. You smoke it, and your neighbors from above will decide to clean the ceiling, or to put the TV louder than usual, or shout in the phone on some deaf interlocutor.
ehe! :lol: True! Salvia is also a great dog-bark attractor (even if there aren't dogs around).
Yes :P . In fact, this is the only critics I can do against salvia. It has made swim much more sensible to noise in general. In winter he was used to work in his kitchen, and he was not even aware that his fridge was so much intermittently noisy. Now, even in the living room he can hear it, and he has to do some effort to keep calm!
He has also discovered how variate can be the sounds made by pigeons.
He doesn't hesitate to use earplugs. It is not perfect, but sometimes it makes the experience possible.
unsigned_char72 wrote: As regards the "understanding via intellect" thing, that's very right, you need first to widen your views and be open to all the possibilities. Reasoning is very much involved in this step. But as for this, I think I am far beyond that as of now. I'm quite out of the conditioning of society and religions (I suppose).
Here I might disagree, or not understand, because swim believed that logic is the most deconditioning tool ever. I will not insist on this though.
Religion is also ultra-decontioning, when they are authentic. But it is in the nature of theology to be quickly perverted into a manipulation (and thus purposefully conditioning) tool. Budhist were aware of this when saying that you have to kill all the buddhas.

unsigned_char72 wrote: About the "advaita" story, it's interesting how SWIM approached it. It was just because of Salvia. At the time, years ago, SWIM had a different view of spirituality. He expected it to be magical, otherworldly and "spiritual". So SWIM was attracted to the shamanic side of Salvia (at least for what was being told), so he finally made acquaintance with the plant. Know what? Salvia showed a totally different story! No shaman's things, no visions of spirits or dead ones, but mind-boggling stuff like "all is thought", "nothing is real" and so on.
Very interesting.

unsigned_char72 wrote: SWIM at first was confused and disappointed because it was not was he expected. "Bizarre thinking" he used to call that. For a time SWIM put Salvia aside as useless for its spiritual advancement. But at a certain point, thanks to the Internet, he decided to search if there was a school of thought that told things similar to what Salvia has shown to SWIM. After lot of goggling and reading, SWIM found the famous advaita teachers (Nisargadatta, Ramana and so on), and damn, they were telling the same things, the same "bizarre thinking" but put into a teaching system and (very important) experienced by people who never used Salvia! Since then, spiritual seeking has a new meaning for SWIM. It means knowing he's identified with the body-mind machine, so that he can see that SWIM actually is the one looking at the body-mind, not body-mind itself.
Swim's path is complex, and it is always delicate to talk on oneself. Swim was crazy about amoebas, passing all his childhood time to observe them, and protozoans, and bacteria, asking himself if they live just one day, or if they were immortal, given that they split in two every 24h. Then he discovered Gödel's theorem in a little book (Nagel & Newman), and decide to study math, instead of biology. The proof of Gödel gives him a hint that amoeba were immortal, that we are immortal, and eventually that the whole physical reality is an illusion. He made this clear mathematically, but did not expect that some mathematicians would react so badly to this, under his back. He made a depression during which he read Alan Watts, Ramana Maharshi (indeed), study the logic of different buddhist schools, meditate a lot, and using entheogen a lot.

He will discover salvia when quitting smoking tobacco to take it orally thanks to a delicious African tobacco, and searching on the net an oral product equivalent for *edit*.
He will find salvia divinorum, and will read all the Erowid reports, and forums (notably edot). He got the feeling that salvia teaching was close to what he felt when identifying himself to self-splitting amoebas and deriving the logic from this. Then he will made his first experiences, and very quickly will be fond of it, and will appreciate it on many levels---mental health, physical health, and the incredible unbelievable surprises.
Salvia is mainly astonishing because it confirms strongly what he can already derived from logic and self-duplication (and mechanism), concerning the nature of after-life, except that mechanism made dubious the possibility of having such experience, and being able to come back from there. This rise doubts, even on mechanism, but he is very happy with this, because he loves to doubt everything 8-)

Of course, salvia was not an equivalent oral product for *edit*. It was *much* more, like a godsend gift, making him experiencing what he knew to be a consequence of mechanism (basically the falsity of materialism), except for that magical come back, which remains quite mysterious.
In a sense, swim, which is no more really swim, lives "there", and consider his life as an amazing entheogen experience that he does "there".

Of course, as an "adept" of Ramana Maharshi, (and self-duplicating amoebas), he knew that the koan "Who am I" can run very deep.

He takes for him that proposition by de Chardin according to which we are not humans having divine experiences from times to times, but divine beings having human experiences from times to times. This has concretely made his current life, notably, definitely more cool, to say just that 8-)

Swim is powerless on how to express his gratitude to whatever made possible the encounter with salvia. Even as an hallucination, he would never have believed that something like that could be lived or be possible, and this despite his many experiences with sleep and many other entheogen. Salvia looks to him as the real deal, whatever that might mean.

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Re: Idea of brain paradox

Post by salvialover24 » Wed Mar 07, 2012 10:10 am

And when swim says that salvia looks to him as the real deal, he is not implying, I think, that salvia *is* the real deal. For who knows?

That's the strangest effect of salvia, of making strongly believe the hallucination content, making it familiar and obvious, and more real than the usual mundane consciousness content.

It is the game over effect, very often described by many salvianauts.

Swim has the taste for fundamental question, and he is *very* ignorant, making him very open minded (but not completely gullible, he hopes) on the possibilities. The salvia experience is quite fascinating in that respect.

He loves it, man :)

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Re: Idea of brain paradox

Post by Jupe » Wed Mar 07, 2012 12:19 pm

:mrgreen: :mrgreen: Great discussion :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

I wish I had more thinking space available, the 3-D world takes too much time!!!

I was researching around abit and found 2 things.

1. I am out of the loop, just found out Sphere/Orb is doing well ....glad for that...hes just moved on to other things.....still over in Afghanistan working.

edit to add this.....Heres a cool quote from him:

"In my opinion the vision producing substances we know about today are just the beginning of the exploration of consciousness through the use of molecular keys. It's obvious to me the most exciting future for mankind is an internal exploration, that the real frontier is the human brain which is far more powerful than any silicon or carbon based computer will ever be. Leading edge research in consciousness is ever confirming that our wetware parallel processing self-conscious brain is more than just an isolated self-conscious entity but something which has an ability to interface with the universe on a quantum level. Although I cannot prove this or claim I know the following as fact; I believe the use of molecular keys known as entheogenic substances can sometimes allow us to have a interaction to a greater mind which is not only human awareness alone but an interconnection of all forms of sentient self-aware consciousness which through that connection can join as one with one another. My hope is that we will continue developing these keys to allow new conscious doorways to be opened and see our progression in this field to be the real lasting frontier for mankind to advance forward into, a future which has no end."





2. also this book by Rick Strassman, anyone read it?

http://www.amazon.com/Inner-Paths-Outer ... pd_sim_b_4


oh and I donated all my saved harvests to Sage Wisdom..30-40 lbs... now can start saving again.....Plants do like do grow here.

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Re: Idea of brain paradox

Post by salvialover24 » Sat Mar 10, 2012 4:14 am

Jupe wrote::mrgreen: :mrgreen: Great discussion :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

I wish I had more thinking space available, the 3-D world takes too much time!!!

I was researching around abit and found 2 things.

1. I am out of the loop, just found out Sphere/Orb is doing well ....glad for that...hes just moved on to other things.....still over in Afghanistan working.

edit to add this.....Heres a cool quote from him:

"In my opinion the vision producing substances we know about today are just the beginning of the exploration of consciousness through the use of molecular keys. It's obvious to me the most exciting future for mankind is an internal exploration, that the real frontier is the human brain which is far more powerful than any silicon or carbon based computer will ever be. Leading edge research in consciousness is ever confirming that our wetware parallel processing self-conscious brain is more than just an isolated self-conscious entity but something which has an ability to interface with the universe on a quantum level.
Man-made machine might not become conscious like human, but not because they are made of silicon, it is more because we don't want them free, and they are born slave.
The use of quantum mechanics in this setting is often wishful thinking made possible by the fact that there is no unanimity on what that theory means. But with the computationailst hypothesis, it means that there are parallel universes, and our consciousness only select the universe we feel to be in. But then computationailsm contradict radically 1500 years of the Aristotelian materialist dogma asserting that there is a primary physical reality. With computationalism, we can bet we are already dreaming, and it seems to me some entheogen can confirm (not prove, 'course) such a fact.

Jupe wrote: Although I cannot prove this or claim I know the following as fact; I believe the use of molecular keys known as entheogenic substances can sometimes allow us to have a interaction to a greater mind which is not only human awareness alone but an interconnection of all forms of sentient self-aware consciousness which through that connection can join as one with one another.
OK.
Jupe wrote: My hope is that we will continue developing these keys to allow new conscious doorways to be opened and see our progression in this field to be the real lasting frontier for mankind to advance forward into, a future which has no end."
We will continue, but we lust fight to come back to seriousness in theology and human science, which means bactrack those 1500 years. It is the lack of seriousness in human science which makes possible things like drug prohibition, which means drug-control by people manipulating you. In my opinion, science has just not yet begun. It has begun 2500 years ago, but it has stopped 1500 years ago. We are in the most obscurantist era ever. Even the Middle Age, were more rigorous than we are today. We are blinded by technology which for many confirms the physicalist world-view, but this view is person eliminativist, and we do assist to persons and ideas elimination by forces and powers.
The use of entheogen is promising for progress, but we have to make it possible. How? Well, perhaps by voting for Ron Paul, to begin with. I mean by that kind of little acts which augment the probability to come back to the needed freedom for making explorations possible.

Jupe wrote:
oh and I donated all my saved harvests to Sage Wisdom..30-40 lbs... now can start saving again.....Plants do like do grow here.
Wow, sage wisdom is lucky! Swim's plants suffered a lot from the winter's lack of light. Three plants even died, but swim has been able to make 4 cuticles from them, which seems to be happy. Now with the coming spring, they all are back to producing leaves, but swims and his friend are far from having consumed what has been harvested in september! :P :mrgreen: :P

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Re: Idea of brain paradox

Post by unsigned_char72 » Sat Mar 10, 2012 9:17 am

well, nice thread, I like how it developed.

@salvialover24: very interesting to know about SWIY's "path" and how he approached from the math/logic side (I barely understand Godel, true mind-boggling stuff).

Re on computationalism: I find myself to agree completely with that view. Our reality is a sort of simulation inside our brains, or better, a simulation allowed by our brain but that can be located nowhere. Anyway it's still a puzzle for me where my "I-AM" feeling comes from and why it's there. My guess is that our brain structures are so complex and so feedback-looped that consciousness arises as a byproduct. It's more or less the theory Douglas Hofstadter explained in the book "I am a strange loop" (we talked before on this forum, see this post).

For the same reason I believe in the Technological singularity theory. Once computers will have more power and will be able to sense themselves (in order to create the "feedback loop") they'll develop a consciousness of their own. Not that I am worried, I'm still struggling to know the consciousness of mine.

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Re: Idea of brain paradox

Post by Jupe » Sun Mar 11, 2012 1:39 pm

quick note to SDLVR24......that guy Orb/Sphere wrote that quote, not me.....although I agreed with his thoughts... :mrgreen:


the Old "IAM" troubles....man... could just be a self emergent property of this current biological systems...thats sort of the depressing view.....I more prefer the idea that we have been given a little downloaded program from the big mainframe...haha.... :mrgreen:

that singularity link always leads me far astray.... lots of pros and cons to discuss..(read the little story about the AI making paperclips, who decides to make the entire universe one big paperclip !!!!) :roll:

...the main point I took away, at least today, is that other singularities, like resource collapse, or a mutated virus, might completely negate the technological singularity from happening.
Given the unknown nature of time, and "infinity"...whatever the heck that is....I like to think these things make work out, or have before? urrrgg..brain meltdown. :?

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Re: Idea of brain paradox

Post by salvialover24 » Sun Mar 11, 2012 2:41 pm

Hmm... Sometimes I think the technological singularity is the recurrent reemergence of universal levels. I think your laptop is already conscious, yet without his consciousness related to its most probable personal experience by "your machine". When we program them we might make their souls already falling. That singularity can have made rebounds like quantum universal machine, but also a machine which can be as 'stupider' as humans. Exploration of the unknown need vigilance to balance between security and freedom.
Hofstadter is a rare physicist not saying bs on Gödel's theorem, including about the mind and mechanism, but he missed the notion of universal machine and the fact that machine can find their own "Gödel's theorem", and the consequences thereof. Emil Post, Judson Webb, well some logicians saw that Gödel's theorem is a chance for machine's autonomy, and the Church-Turing thesis is a quasi vaccine for machine against any normative theory about them, they are born universal dissident, somehow. They are never satisfied! Ah but then how to explain salvia divinorum? Are there divine shortcut? Nothing is simple :mrgreen: :geek: :mrgreen:

The deeper impact of comp is in theology. The theology of Aristotle (used by atheists and 2/3 of the abrahamic religion: which is that there is an ontologically primitive physical universe) can't work, we have to come back to Plato where the physical reality is the border of something else (and vaster), which I think is closer to the mystic and inward explorers. Universal machine or numbers are inward explorers, when they get the chance.

This does not make digital mechanism, alias comp, true, but testable. The singularity is a cloud of singularities.

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Re: Idea of brain paradox

Post by Raa » Mon Mar 12, 2012 2:14 am

Come on Bruno. Voting for Ron Paul ? I thought he was the only person deserving the american presidency but he is too good to be true. Something's wrong with this. Obama was also a man of change and we saw what happened, they're only giving the people what they want from the future "in words". They control the reality of words and you contribute to that world by voting.
salvialover24 wrote: We are blinded by technology which for many confirms the physicalist world-view, but this view is person eliminativist, and we do assist to persons and ideas elimination by forces and powers.
Likewise... They're being injected with the thoughts that we are ever progressing and utilizing while being indoctrinated because they're conditioned to sell their dreams for this fast-motion realm. They just take children for a walk in the park and make them forget their way back home. Everyone's stuck in the park :D But this manipulation exists in every branch even in idealism, people are so stupified they think idealism theology or reality altering substances are always subject to prejudice.
I'm still trying to focus at which points you differ with my points of view but they always just sound so very close but also slightly and weirdly different in a way I can't express precisely (wha- !?? lol)

And it might be something like "Singularity is a cloud of singularities and there is no one collective expanding singularity of every possibility that can be defined as Blablabla" (Ok it's not an ever expanding complex consciousness algorithm that can inherit everything possible and impossible that can be labelled as god. (Thought bubble of everyone: No no it's not god. I'm smarter than that) I know I sound religious when I say these things but guys, stop labeling me and others like me I'm running away from all the restrictions and "idea dominance" seekers...
That's the problem with imagination. I think I can intuitively grasp the whole aspect of computationalism without mixing it with any after-birth learned reflexes, memories and skills cause I just believe or see there is a natural un-defined ...>>>

(its actually defined but "Sleepers/blue pill ppl in the pink tubes like where neo wakes up and sees them ARE making this undefined because they can't grasp those which flow over their imagination or limitation, they can't reach for it and wake up)

...>>> idea in this END_GAME vision - call it salvia effect or uda. The whole idea becomes restricted when its defined with words and it's reduced. Even if we reduce this to theories or symbolic/metaphorical theologies some people (a lot of people) don't get it because of their fear of using their imagination, they're conditioned to their small worlds sometimes even Salvia can't help to those people. I can only hope for their survival of freedom NOT in their blissful ignorance but in their saddest realities, for they will be seriously sorry and their identities will cease existing while on the other hand we have those who experience an immortal life because their thoughts will survive in future generations without changing. And finding that which is most pure is their biggest virtue because they are incredibly brave by taking a step forward and believing something they think they understand and will last forever. Thesis + antithesis, I'll be waiting for your humble contribution to me. Some things change and some don't. It's very simple actually but words are so misunderstandable. I wanna try writing in parables allegories and metaphors sometime later hehe

"Most philosophers arrive at a distorted copy of reality, by ignoring the reliable input of their senses and resorting to the constructs of language and reason." So that was nietzsche. But above those senses there is simulacra ?

There is a very interesting thing with the laughter of salvia and the relationship of it with Salvia. That impossible overflow is absurd and so intensely funny and humorous, the pattern of the laughter gets close to an amusing deathcry. Can you relate to this ?

And sandman. Anybody here read Sandman, the master of dreams ? :D

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Re: Idea of brain paradox

Post by salvialover24 » Tue Mar 13, 2012 1:29 pm

Raa wrote:Come on Bruno. Voting for Ron Paul ? I thought he was the only person deserving the american presidency but he is too good to be true. Something's wrong with this. Obama was also a man of change and we saw what happened, they're only giving the people what they want from the future "in words". They control the reality of words and you contribute to that world by voting.
Exactly. That's why I think people hoping more freedom and much less lies should vote for Ron Paul. The others all betrayed themselves, and Obama doubly so by signing the bill NDAA, which I have read hundreds times and sems to me to be coup d'etat in dsguise.

Ron Paul is the only hope. He is the first to propose repelling it. The others fakes nothing happened.

Basically the choice seems to be a little hope in constitution, bill of right and democracy, (Ron Paul) and a guarantied police or military state (any others).

before Obama signed that bill, I thought that there was some sense in the "war on terrorism", but not it has no more sense. The bill NDAA is basicaly like "the terrorist have won, now we are the terrorists".
Any expert on terrorism will tell you that discretion is the main tool in such conflicts, and now I think that the war against terrorism is as fake as the war on drugs. Pure criminal fear selling business, and manner to control and manipulate people.

The NDAA bill? That's very bad! For the whole planet. They are legalizing their criminal acts, they officialize the worst type of control of people.
Raa wrote:
salvialover24 wrote: We are blinded by technology which for many confirms the physicalist world-view, but this view is person eliminativist, and we do assist to persons and ideas elimination by forces and powers.
Likewise... They're being injected with the thoughts that we are ever progressing and utilizing while being indoctrinated because they're conditioned to sell their dreams for this fast-motion realm. They just take children for a walk in the park and make them forget their way back home. Everyone's stuck in the park :D But this manipulation exists in every branch even in idealism, people are so stupified they think idealism theology or reality altering substances are always subject to prejudice.
Yes, but at different degrees. Like religion has to be separated from the state, health and food must be separated from the state. New separation guide lines must be imagine and build.
Raa wrote: I'm still trying to focus at which points you differ with my points of view but they always just sound so very close but also slightly and weirdly different in a way I can't express precisely (wha- !?? lol)
Only differences make the fun 8-)
Raa wrote: And it might be something like "Singularity is a cloud of singularities and there is no one collective expanding singularity of every possibility that can be defined as Blablabla" (Ok it's not an ever expanding complex consciousness algorithm that can inherit everything possible and impossible that can be labelled as god. (Thought bubble of everyone: No no it's not god. I'm smarter than that) I know I sound religious when I say these things but guys, stop labeling me and others like me I'm running away from all the restrictions and "idea dominance" seekers...
That's the problem with imagination. I think I can intuitively grasp the whole aspect of computationalism without mixing it with any after-birth learned reflexes, memories and skills cause I just believe or see there is a natural un-defined ...>>>

(its actually defined but "Sleepers/blue pill ppl in the pink tubes like where neo wakes up and sees them ARE making this undefined because they can't grasp those which flow over their imagination or limitation, they can't reach for it and wake up)

...>>> idea in this END_GAME vision - call it salvia effect or uda.
Hmm... It is related but different.
Raa wrote: The whole idea becomes restricted when its defined with words and it's reduced. Even if we reduce this to theories or symbolic/metaphorical theologies some people (a lot of people) don't get it because of their fear of using their imagination, they're conditioned to their small worlds sometimes even Salvia can't help to those people.
You are rude on salvia. But the context does not help indeed. But then it is all normal, and we live the human context which is full of horrors and delusions, a bit of the best (computer, music, salvia) and the worst (fake wars, tyrannies). We are embedded in scenarios, and drugged more by TV than by any herbs.
Raa wrote: I can only hope for their survival of freedom NOT in their blissful ignorance but in their saddest realities, for they will be seriously sorry and their identities will cease existing while on the other hand we have those who experience an immortal life because their thoughts will survive in future generations without changing. And finding that which is most pure is their biggest virtue because they are incredibly brave by taking a step forward and believing something they think they understand and will last forever. Thesis + antithesis, I'll be waiting for your humble contribution to me. Some things change and some don't. It's very simple actually but words are so misunderstandable. I wanna try writing in parables allegories and metaphors sometime later hehe

"Most philosophers arrive at a distorted copy of reality, by ignoring the reliable input of their senses and resorting to the constructs of language and reason." So that was nietzsche. But above those senses there is simulacra ?
The problem is that since a very long time we have separate science from religion, making science into pseudo-science, and religion into pseudo-religion.
But science does not exist. What exist is only scientific attitude, which is only awareness that we are not even sure that there is a reality. So we make theories which are humble revisable hypotheses. So we have no certainty. Science = doubt attitude. It is not field dependent. Nor does it needs any diploma. Science is not much more than self-honesty. Today we just don't know if Aristotle or Plato theology is the correct one, or the most plausible one. Humans are still fearing humans, and this is a vicious self-fulfilling machinery.
Raa wrote: There is a very interesting thing with the laughter of salvia and the relationship of it with Salvia. That impossible overflow is absurd and so intensely funny and humorous, the pattern of the laughter gets close to an amusing deathcry. Can you relate to this ?
Hmm... I am not sure I would associate "salvia", "amusing", "death", "cry", except with many caution, in between salvia lovers, due to the hotness of those things. "death" is ambiguous also, with the difference between yours, or those of who you care, or not etc.
But salvia has definitely a sort of comic sense of humor. It can looks like a cosmic joke, and it seems related to swim's own death perhaps.

Swim should smoke more to be sure he got the end of the joke :lol:
Raa wrote: And sandman. Anybody here read Sandman, the master of dreams ? :D
You mean from Hoffman? With the guy who felt in love with ... a wood puppet automaton?

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Re: Idea of brain paradox

Post by Raa » Wed Mar 14, 2012 6:26 am

Nope its Neil Gaiman's. Its about Sandman, who wakes up from a really long sleep to the reality, there are lots of symbolic descriptions from philosophy religion and ... dreams and salvia :D
"Reason. It is no more reliable a tool than instinct, myth, or dream. But it has the potential to be far more dangerous..."
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