Idea of brain paradox

This is the place to discuss Salvia divinorum, splendins, and the other psychoactive salvias.
User avatar
unsigned_char72
Posts: 582
Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2011 10:03 am

Idea of brain paradox

Post by unsigned_char72 » Fri Feb 24, 2012 11:18 am

SWIM did his best to remember and to take with swimself some insights during a Salvia teleportation. You know the dream-like taste of Salvia visions and how easy is to forget everything after all is finished. Not being able to remember words, SWIM attached initials "B" and "B" to two things he was confident he would be able to recollect later (this technique he used in dream recall experiments). "Ok, so it's B and B. Good."

The first "B" is rather trivial, it stands for "baby". SWIM remembered a time when he was child and he fantasized about having a magic plant to do magic voyages in fairy lands and the like. Know what? After so many years this plant has come, it's Salvia! And it's true magic!

The second "B" is more interesting, it stands for "brains". SWIM imagined a human brain taken out of his body but still able to function because somewhat connected to blood, oxygen and so on. An isolated brain. Now, SWIM reasoned, since this brain is alive and functioning, it is probably thinking. And since it's thinking it must have an idea of itself. A brain that has and idea of what a brain is. Hum. And the paradoxical thing is that, while the brain thinks it has a precise idea of what a brain is, this idea is not the brain. Not even closer. It's just an idea inside a brain, not a brain. The whole thing seemed to SWIM so paradoxical and revelatory at the same time! And when there's a paradox, salvia laughters kicks in!

I wonder if this brain-idea-paradox is a metaphor for what we, as persons, are. Persons who have and idea about themselves in their brains, the idea being so "solid", but in reality the idea is not the person. The idea is not real. It's just "software".

Image

User avatar
salvialover24
Posts: 1963
Joined: Thu Oct 13, 2011 5:46 am
Location: Europa
Contact:

Re: Idea of brain paradox

Post by salvialover24 » Sat Feb 25, 2012 6:57 am

Salvia is a good teacher, once you let it go and can listen. Nice report. Salvia is the real deal, the true magic indeed. I just cannot believe in it, except that swim is coming back just now, with the laugh and the smile.

Now that kind of post triggers my envy to talk about the machine self-reference topic, and what brain might "really" consist in. I relate, both "intellectually" and "heartily", with your idea that the brain is only a brain idea. Brains don't really exist, it is all in your head :) (amazingly this can be shown to be *necessary* in the theory (hypothesis) of mechanism).

More on this when the time will come to talk of many things, you know, like 'shoes, cabbages and kings, and if it is true that pigs can fly, and whether the see is boiling hot, or not' ;)

User avatar
Raa
Posts: 98
Joined: Fri Oct 21, 2011 3:42 pm

Re: Idea of brain paradox

Post by Raa » Sun Feb 26, 2012 8:32 am

Maybe we are all in a constant loop, quarantined, drugged or maybe we were injected a disorder which we can't identify on our own and we can't find the way to get out of it subconsciously other than taking a 5 minute look at it with some plant. We are actually conditioned to think staying with the unknown disorder was sanity and the loop was persistence when in reality everything was the opposite? And maybe communication guarantees the persistence of this disorder and people who communicate less and who are heavily introverted are sometimes considered smart or unique by conformists?

Loooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooop




Sounds a bit like carpe diem and anarchy. It's not even about the process its just a small branch which we label to get rid of abstract patterns and it's stupifying every time we repeat those labels its a dead end to use this conformist language eventually the chaos imbalance becomes an unnecessary power. Why do we even consider without - nvm I'm out. I can't express how scary the idea of having unnecessary discussions to me are.. They never reach somewhere and they're mostly a kind of masturbation of dominance.

Watch how this is forgotten like a distant memory of an unimportant dream cause we have a mainstreamist population which can be symbolised as a "Big Wild Rabbit" with a leash put on it by manipulative kingz. You poke the rabbit or the kings, you're either rabbit meal or king's meal.

What's the biggest joke we can (n)ever understand? :o

User avatar
unsigned_char72
Posts: 582
Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2011 10:03 am

Re: Idea of brain paradox

Post by unsigned_char72 » Mon Feb 27, 2012 5:42 am

Another three or four insights, one of which to be labeled with the special tag: "HOLY-SHIT!" :shock:

First, some strangely negative insights:

a) Salvia is the enemy of self-realization, showing only images of the projected mind, all pointing to the outer world
b) Salvia is worthless for spiritual progress, because it just shows mere hallucinations (by scrambling the thoughts)

don't know why of these two; perhaps because SWIM is feeling he's on a plateau in his spiritual path? Dunno.

Other random insights:

SWIM felt he now was the IDEA INSIDE A BRAIN of this first post thread; he was like within a bubble or a sealed jar with no way to escape both physically and mentally. More precisely it was like there was no outside to escape to: not being able to escape because of lack of bounds! Very claustrophobic. SWIM also felt that, being his perceptions modeled by his brain, he would be not able to experience never again normal-sight (he is short-sighted) or to feel perceptions from other senses he doesn't have (like sense of animals).

While SWIM was "tripping", he saw a pond of water, and this automatically triggered the memory of a special locale of an online text adventure game he addictively used to play in the '90, the so called M.U.D.s. (The locale was the temple of Tyr). This was extremely mind-boggling because the internal memory of this game was completely image-less (being a text adventure) but very detailed at the same time. SWIM supposed that it is something similar to how blind people "see" things. Who knows.

Now the "HOLY-SHIT" experience:

SWIM had just inhaled the salvinorin vapors from his vaporizer when he realized it was going to be a shocking experience. He thought "how brave are the guys on the forum who use extracts! Can't imagine what they get if 1x Salvia is like this!". Then the usual landscape from childhood appeared with small little presences (like gnomes) arriving in flow dancing and turning around as SWIM has experienced many times before. BUT THIS TIME IT WAS DIFFERENT. THEY HAD COME TO CARRY SWIM INTO DEATH. :shock: Gulp! SWIM Knew that very well, indeed all was so familiar, like knowing it from the start of SWIM's life. So the long-waited moment had arrived, it was time to die and the process could not be stopped. The presences started to carry away SWIM, like in the movie Ghost when the howling demons carry Willy in Hell, but with the difference that the presences were benign and familiar, and that they would carry SWIM into oblivion and not in hell. SWIM can't describe the sense of desperation of being obliterated. All was going to disappear, and never be again. The feeling of NEVER-TO-RETURN was so intense and despairing, SHIT! Anyway the last thought was of gratitude toward the small presences for being so kind and familiar, thus saving to SWIM more terror. It was like an higher presence sent them to comfort SWIM in that crucial moment.

Everything then return to normality, and there was still some Salvia left in the vape; but SWIM having had enough for that session, put it aside.

User avatar
salvialover24
Posts: 1963
Joined: Thu Oct 13, 2011 5:46 am
Location: Europa
Contact:

Re: Idea of brain paradox

Post by salvialover24 » Tue Feb 28, 2012 10:28 am

Swim has never experienced a claustrophobia with salvia. On the contrary, it is almost like if a hole in reality appeared, and save him from the mundane-life claustrophobia. Swim got a unique claustrophobic dream after an experience of salvia, though. He was buried alive.

As a sitter he has heard some people reporting the claustrophobia issue.

He got often the feeling of the non-return possible, but tend to enjoy it, making sometimes the return a little bit despairing. Most of the time he can stay there, and "they" send a copy, which feels like completely reset, for the time of the afterglow (what he called the MAX effect).

I am not sure that swim can relate with the "strangely negative insight". But when swim uses too much extracts, the people there sermon him a little bit, and the teaching might be suppressed, leading to a disappointing experience. He has stopped to make any pure extract experience, but from times to times can still enrich some leaves with a few extracts, making sure he got the level "I" (immaterial, "breakthrough", ...). Usually leaves are quite enough, if he smokes them in the correct mindset and settings, which is not always easy to prepare, because it might depend on the mundane life-events. There are also some kind of interferences between using salvia for healing purposes, and for spiritual purposes. Swim has better to be sure on this issue before leaving reality. He does not met the same kind of entities for healing and for spiritual or metaphysical teaching. Strangely enough.
The key with salvia, is to take what she offers, and not ask too much, but still, it is useful to have at least a vague idea of why you take it, and to not have too much goals at once.

User avatar
unsigned_char72
Posts: 582
Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2011 10:03 am

Re: Idea of brain paradox

Post by unsigned_char72 » Tue Feb 28, 2012 11:59 am

Agree completely about the goals, SWIM has learned to approach her without any specific expectation; the only thing he does is some mind-preparation (relaxation/meditation some minutes before taking her).

SWIM uses Salvia specifically for spiritual advancement, not just for fun or curiosity. Being a "follower" of Advaita (non dualism) he believes Salvia will help him to dissolve the I-AM-a-body illusion in a quicker way than using the traditional meditation method (which consists in abiding in the I-AM feeling). Anyway, there weren't big advancements. All the insights that go in the direction of advaita aren't retained after the "comeback" and are easily forgotten.

EDIT: about the claustrophobia, sometimes it's an issue. SWIM isn't claustrophobic in the strict sense, but his worst nightmare is being in a situation where he is blocked/buried with his face against a wall or a ceiling (SWIM had two such nightmares recently and they were absolute terror). With Salvia occasionally there is such type of experience (face against close wall) but luckily not often.

User avatar
salvialover24
Posts: 1963
Joined: Thu Oct 13, 2011 5:46 am
Location: Europa
Contact:

Re: Idea of brain paradox

Post by salvialover24 » Thu Mar 01, 2012 4:37 pm

unsigned_char72 wrote:Agree completely about the goals, SWIM has learned to approach her without any specific expectation; the only thing he does is some mind-preparation (relaxation/meditation some minutes before taking her).
Hmm... swim tried that, but the lady was laughing at him :P
She got him by surprise, very often.
He might try again.
He procrastinates often salvia because there is too much noise all the time in the neighborhood. Swim has made a lot of experiences, but not yet one outside, in a wood. He miss the possibility to smoke salvia in temples, or churches, big places pointing on the sky.
unsigned_char72 wrote: SWIM uses Salvia specifically for spiritual advancement, not just for fun or curiosity. Being a "follower" of Advaita (non dualism) he believes Salvia will help him to dissolve the I-AM-a-body illusion in a quicker way than using the traditional meditation method (which consists in abiding in the I-AM feeling). Anyway, there weren't big advancements. All the insights that go in the direction of advaita aren't retained after the "comeback" and are easily forgotten.
You know, you can dissolve the I-AM-a-body illusion with logic and reasonable (perhaps) hypothesis. In the UDA thread I explain how the seemingly innocuous hypothesis of Digital Mechanism, or computationalism, often made by the materialist, show a way to stay rational and still dissipating the illusion of bodies and matter. If we are machine, we are in a "matrix" and the physical reality is only the shadow of something else.
Unfortunately we live a period where science and religion are still separated, but that is insane and schizophrenic. It is of the type "drug are dangerous": just a useful hoax for stealing your money, and sometimes your soul. You just can't separate science and religion. It is logically impossible. That's perhaps why we have two brains.

Of course salvia is an incredible teacher, if only we could remember the lesson!

I *always* forget.

Swim wrote this in the afterglow of a salvia experience. That is what he call the "forget-but-still-believe-in-it" state. When the afterglow ends, he finds himself in the state "forget-and-even-disbelieve-in-it". "It" means the existence of the lesson. The deeper content seems not even of the memorizable type. Sometimes, after a salvia hit, he finds just absolutely obvious why he has to forget the peak of the experience, if we want to come back. There is something true, apparently, which does not make any sense here. But he remembers somethings too.
unsigned_char72 wrote: EDIT: about the claustrophobia, sometimes it's an issue. SWIM isn't claustrophobic in the strict sense, but his worst nightmare is being in a situation where he is blocked/buried with his face against a wall or a ceiling (SWIM had two such nightmares recently and they were absolute terror). With Salvia occasionally there is such type of experience (face against close wall) but luckily not often.
Never got the loneliness nor the claustrophobia in a salvia experience, from reading swim's diary. Let us cross the fingers. Swim will not say that this will never happen, because, knowing the sense of humor there, he might as well do it quite immediately. "She" loves to contradict all certainties swim can have, especially about her. That plant is complete magic!

User avatar
unsigned_char72
Posts: 582
Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2011 10:03 am

Re: Idea of brain paradox

Post by unsigned_char72 » Fri Mar 02, 2012 9:17 am

just as confirmation of the "no-expectancy" subject, SWIM has just got a tremendous experience, exactly when he sat without nothing in mind and skipping the "mind-preparation". BTW, the deepness of the experience reminds me of a feeling: oftentimes SWIM thinks "heya! this is the most incredible salvia trip ever!". Is that a trick of the mind, or salvia trips are really increasing in deepness? Does SWIY ever experience this?
salvialover24 wrote:He procrastinates often salvia because there is too much noise all the time in the neighborhood. Swim has made a lot of experiences, but not yet one outside, in a wood. He miss the possibility to smoke salvia in temples, or churches, big places pointing on the sky.
SWIM used to procrastinate Salvia for almost any reason. I like to think of it as the anti-addictive property of Salvia Divinorum. As regards neighborhood noises, yes, sometimes they are an issue also for SWIM. It seems that slamming doors or ringing phones are just "lurking" for a Salvia trip to happen! isn't it so? For such reason SWIM does Salvia late in the night when the noises are quieted down and chances of being interrupted are low. SWIM has also a special room, out of the house, where he is less disturbed.
salvialover24 wrote:you can dissolve the I-AM-a-body illusion with logic and reasonable (perhaps) hypothesis.
not sure that can be done by the simple intellect. My actual understanding is that a sort of intuition is needed. And, I believe, such intuition may came by constant witnessing of the "I" feeling (or "I-AM"). At least it's what all the Advaita Gurus are telling.

User avatar
salvialover24
Posts: 1963
Joined: Thu Oct 13, 2011 5:46 am
Location: Europa
Contact:

Re: Idea of brain paradox

Post by salvialover24 » Fri Mar 02, 2012 5:12 pm

unsigned_char72 wrote:just as confirmation of the "no-expectancy" subject, SWIM has just got a tremendous experience, exactly when he sat without nothing in mind and skipping the "mind-preparation". BTW, the deepness of the experience reminds me of a feeling: oftentimes SWIM thinks "heya! this is the most incredible salvia trip ever!". Is that a trick of the mind, or salvia trips are really increasing in deepness? Does SWIY ever experience this?
SWIM is not sure. The depth can vary a lot, and independently of the salvinorin concentration. On 2234 experiences, in three of them he was persuaded that it was the last experience, because they were probably deeper and apparently complete. Feeling it would not even made sense to smoke again, and obviously that "was" an illusion. So there is a notion of scale between disappointing experiences, which seems to become rarer and rarer, and perfecting touch experiences, which gives an illusion (perhaps true, swim dunno) that nothing more is needed or even could make sense. It might be true, because the experience might be done at the "end of time" from the point of view of there!

Each time he go there, he feels like remembering the obvious nature of that experience, like if "he" (but who exactly) already lives there, out of time.
unsigned_char72 wrote:
salvialover24 wrote:He procrastinates often salvia because there is too much noise all the time in the neighborhood. Swim has made a lot of experiences, but not yet one outside, in a wood. He miss the possibility to smoke salvia in temples, or churches, big places pointing on the sky.
SWIM used to procrastinate Salvia for almost any reason. I like to think of it as the anti-addictive property of Salvia Divinorum. As regards neighborhood noises, yes, sometimes they are an issue also for SWIM. It seems that slamming doors or ringing phones are just "lurking" for a Salvia trip to happen! isn't it so? For such reason SWIM does Salvia late in the night when the noises are quieted down and chances of being interrupted are low. SWIM has also a special room, out of the house, where he is less disturbed.
It is a side effect of salvia. You smoke it, and your neighbors from above will decide to clean the ceiling, or to put the TV louder than usual, or shout in the phone on some deaf interlocutor.

Salvia is also very demanding on the place. She prefers the kitchen, despite the trip must be programmed to last between the moment the fridge is noisy. Yes, late evening, or early morning are usually better. Extracts can help to overcome the noise, but it is double edged, the noise can vanish completely, but it can also interfere strongly.
And I follow you on salvia being anti-addictive. SWIM has lowered down almost anything he was consuming, like coffee, alcohol, tobacco, meat, sugar, salt, fats. That was not part of the plan! Even an unmentionable green plant get eventually in the range of salvia's exclusivity. It is crazy how "she" can be exclusive! But the taste for those other products has not disappeared, it is just that much less is needed. (Not good for the merchandising of useless products, 'course).


unsigned_char72 wrote:
salvialover24 wrote:you can dissolve the I-AM-a-body illusion with logic and reasonable (perhaps) hypothesis.
not sure that can be done by the simple intellect. My actual understanding is that a sort of intuition is needed. And, I believe, such intuition may came by constant witnessing of the "I" feeling (or "I-AM"). At least it's what all the Advaita Gurus are telling.
You cannot experience it by the simple intellect, that's true, but you can get a large picture of a different "possible truth" from what is more or less told in schools since a long time. You can understand intellectually that by making some hypothesis, the "big thing" might be different than usually conceived, and this enlarge the spectrum of all interpretations in general, of texts, observations and experiences.

To experience it is a different kind of effort, but the intellect can be open to theories making such experience possible, and even suggest practical path, among which some possible special brain transformation, so that plant can play some role, or stress, or death, etc.
Intellect and intuition can make peace, but in our culture, well, both are currently repressed or/and manipulated (despite the hypocritical pretension).

There are perhaps as many paths than there are lives and sequences of lives. No one can choose the path you prefer. You and other people have to respect your little ego, even if the goal is to get rid of it.
It is dangerous to oppose too much quickly different paths, or to believe that we have to stick on one type of path. I favor those on which the intellect and the intuition can compromise, or better, complementarize, if I can say.
Advaita is as true as saying that "advaita is *the* truth" is false, which is better than being simply false.

User avatar
unsigned_char72
Posts: 582
Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2011 10:03 am

Re: Idea of brain paradox

Post by unsigned_char72 » Sat Mar 03, 2012 8:04 am

salvialover24 wrote:It is a side effect of salvia. You smoke it, and your neighbors from above will decide to clean the ceiling, or to put the TV louder than usual, or shout in the phone on some deaf interlocutor.
ehe! :lol: True! Salvia is also a great dog-bark attractor (even if there aren't dogs around).

As regards the "understanding via intellect" thing, that's very right, you need first to widen your views and be open to all the possibilities. Reasoning is very much involved in this step. But as for this, I think I am far beyond that as of now. I'm quite out of the conditioning of society and religions (I suppose).

About the "advaita" story, it's interesting how SWIM approached it. It was just because of Salvia. At the time, years ago, SWIM had a different view of spirituality. He expected it to be magical, otherworldly and "spiritual". So SWIM was attracted to the shamanic side of Salvia (at least for what was being told), so he finally made acquaintance with the plant. Know what? Salvia showed a totally different story! No shaman's things, no visions of spirits or dead ones, but mind-boggling stuff like "all is thought", "nothing is real" and so on. SWIM at first was confused and disappointed because it was not was he expected. "Bizarre thinking" he used to call that. For a time SWIM put Salvia aside as useless for its spiritual advancement. But at a certain point, thanks to the Internet, he decided to search if there was a school of thought that told things similar to what Salvia has shown to SWIM. After lot of goggling and reading, SWIM found the famous advaita teachers (Nisargadatta, Ramana and so on), and damn, they were telling the same things, the same "bizarre thinking" but put into a teaching system and (very important) experienced by people who never used Salvia! Since then, spiritual seeking has a new meaning for SWIM. It means knowing he's identified with the body-mind machine, so that he can see that SWIM actually is the one looking at the body-mind, not body-mind itself.

Post Reply