Remember Frame Stacking And RedGreenVines?

[hekura]

I have always thought these were important discussions. Why not review them? And, say what you think.

http://www.entheogen.com/forum/showt...frame+stacking

http://www.entheogen.com/forum/showt...frame+stacking

[salvia_explorer]

I came around 2007 I think, but I do remember redgreenvines. What ever happened to him, anyone know? I think he was from Toronto.

[burningmouth]

He's still posting at the shroomery. I think he has 1000s of posts over there. He's still talking about frame stacking. I never could understand frame stacking, even with the diagrams. I don't think frame stacking explains all aspects of salvia trips. It might not even explain one aspect of salvia trips, but I wouldn't want to debate RGV. I'd probably lose.

[kedabra]

RGV's frame stacking concept was picked up by James Kent in his short book
"Psychedelic Information Theory :Shamanism in the Age of Reason" where he applies the concept to all kinds of entheogens. I'm not sure how useful Kent's approach is though, he tries to build a bridge between the liminal and the rational, but he seems simultaneously too reductionist, and not scientifically rigorous enough, and unwilling to do any serious philosophy of mind.

[salvialover24]

I agree with kedabra on James Kent. I have not yet any precise idea of what is meant by frame stacking. The few things I understand makes me things it could be interesting though.
Now when redgreenvines says:

... with entheogen the frames fade more slowly, such that at
Level - 1 "S" 4 frames are stacked, 3 fading and one arising
Level - 2 "A" 8 frames are stacked, 7 fading and one arising
Level - 3 "L" 16 frames are stacked, 15 fading and one arising
Level - 4 "V" 32 frames are stacked, 31 fading and one arising
Level - 5 "I" 64 frames are stacked, 63 fading and one arising
Level - 6 "A" 128 frames are stacked, 127 fading and one arising

... I am at lost. Of course, as fan of the Mandelbrot set, I can only appreciate the binary exponential 2^n: 2, 4, 8, 16, 32, 64, 128, ... but in the context of salvia, this seems at first sight to me to be to much precise for being "entirely genuine". Actually, sagestudent' notion of "level" is already too much precise, especially that people react differently. But of course it is nice to try theories, and who knows I might just be missing something.

I hope everyone (having looked at enough mandelbrot zooms!) see the way the little Mandelbrots get eventually 2, 4, 8, 16, 32, 64, 128, 256, 512, 1024, ... ad infinitum times their histories-neighborhoods around themselves! If you zoom on a little mandelbrot *in* a little mandelbrot, you even get each such infinite duplications in between the higher level duplication:

2 times 2, 4, 8, 16, 32, 64, 128, 256, 512, 1024, ...
4 times 2, 4, 8, 16, 32, 64, 128, 256, 512, 1024, ...
8 times 2, 4, 8, 16, 32, 64, 128, 256, 512, 1024, ...
16 times 2, 4, 8, 16, 32, 64, 128, 256, 512, 1024, ...
64 times 2, 4, 8, 16, 32, 64, 128, 256, 512, 1024, ...
128 times 2, 4, 8, 16, 32, 64, 128, 256, 512, 1024, ...
256 times 2, 4, 8, 16, 32, 64, 128, 256, 512, 1024, ...
512 times 2, 4, 8, 16, 32, 64, 128, 256, 512, 1024, ...
1024 times 2, 4, 8, 16, 32, 64, 128, 256, 512, 1024, ...
etc.

And if you zoom in a little M set in a little M set in a little M set, you get two times what is just above, 4 times, etc.

If redgreenvines' theory is correct, all little mandelbrot sets would represent an infinite level salvia experience

I have tripped on the third part of this deepest zoom (15 minutes zoom, just look at the third part if you have not the time):

Current deepest M zoom

[Jupe]

I sort of understood frame stacking to me "mind moments"...the way the mind seems to run in linear fashion, ideas and language following sequential paths of some sort....entheogens and salvia in particular perhaps break up the flow, or let the user slip between the moments somehow... I think RGV related it a signal flaw, (delayed or interfered processing, as if we are COMPUTERS

[bombazil]

I have tripped on the third part of this deepest zoom (15 minutes zoom, just look at the third part if you have not the time):

Current deepest M zoom

Who would have thought a video of the Mandelbrot set would have a surprise ending!

(BTW, try watching that for a few minutes and then look at something else... )

[salvialover24]

I sort of understood frame stacking to me "mind moments"...the way the mind seems to run in linear fashion, ideas and language following sequential paths of some sort....entheogens and salvia in particular perhaps break up the flow, or let the user slip between the moments somehow... I think RGV related it a signal flaw, (delayed or interfered processing, as if we are COMPUTERS

That makes sense. Actually some brain disease makes people reporting that they see everything like stack or stuck (perhaps) frame, with no movement at all. They lost the ability to detect any movement. My friend told me about similar experience when he mixes *edit* with dissociatives, and find it rather unpleasant.

It reminds me also of the amazing sphere's coca cola advertizing video. You can "see" a movement without movement.

RedGreenVines was always such a classic description, (as a avatar) for me, of the boiling up of atoms in the minds eye, or whatever the heck happens when Swimmers launch into the SalviaSeas.. Still trying to find something that represents that, the image below doesnt do justice, but maybe cross it with some of new avatars here, (Burning Mouth and Dio come to mind) and some of the Mandelbrot sequences........

RGV had a pretty cool method of SD infused cigarette paper strips.

<img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v627/ ... 16ea_m.gif[/img]

[burningmouth]

^ man, I love that above gif. If I make another video, I'm definitely going to use that gif.


http://www.infinitecake.com/animfrac/animfrac3.html

[hekura]

I understood the Frame Stack Theory (FST) to be a way of expressing how an entheogen could cause the connections in your thought mechanisms to slow down enough to let you see the gaps between each set of frames. For instance, hearing or seeing repetitions, trails on moving objects, and similar. Framed thoughts landing on the center stage of your attention. I guess that it is just an approach to understanding it and may not hold up to Mandelbrot math, of which I'd like to talk more about.

I wouldn't want to debate RGV. I'd probably lose.

I was a newbie years ago and RGV debated me in a few discussions. Burned me on some things. Ha, ha. Turned out to be in my best interest, though.