magick versus empathy

[Moonbreeze]

Empathy is not static. Of course if you are going to help someone trying to attempt suicide you dont jump yourself. But if you are observing some terrible scene from afar, on TV, etc then allow yourself to feel what you feel---dont resist is what I encourage.

In psychedelic terms this can go very deep indeed where by you can feel your actually becoming the other. Grof and others have mention that say in a case of an abuseful past, the person having the psychotherapeutic psychedelic experience may become BOTH the victim and perpetrator---so say you have been raped, you are the one being raped AND the one raping, and somehow this gestalt has a very healing potential.

I have this very powerful book about the real account of a survivor of the Nazi concentration camp Shivitti: A Vision and he has therapy with a Dr Baastians in Holland who specialized helping Nazi concentration camp survivors with LSD.

The vision that eventually is the breakthrough is when he sees HIS own face superimposed on the main person he blames for the horrors he and others went through--so again there is this victim and perpetrator identity, in his case knowing that we are ALL capable of such evil.

In NDE reports people claim that often they are given a life review, and they will see even nuances where they have hurt people--the smallest things, etc--and they not only see themselves doing this, but become the other feeling the results of that hurt, and this experience has a huge impact on the NDEer.

The usual attitude in our culture is seeing other 'unfortunate' people--including other species-- as totally cut off from us. And it its extreme forms it is sadism where we look at the other as an object we get satisfaction from hurting. Hurting, being evil, to them gives us a good feeling. This is what serial killers do! They pick on the vulnerable --on women, on children, old people.

its mentioned aboove how like Crowley, LaVey also had a terrible childhood. I can imgine he did, because from looking at what these people say, and their actions, I can see clearly unresolved trauma acting out. That is their pursuit of 'Will' to gain POWER, their real strength--their vulnerability--is smashed down and slashed, and their religion then inevitably becomes the 'strong versus the weak'!

[minderbinder]

ha, thanks

seriously, i don't want to hijack this thread, when talking about "psychic vampirism" i mean more like that kind where more or less useless confrontations or just the working together with some people leaves you more and more in a kind of dried out, powerless, depressed state and with rising aversion against the situation without consciously knowing why exactly. possibly psychic parasitism would be a more appropriate term.

got around and went through my "library" (hoho, ego pump) and found a book i completely forgot about - "self defense with psi" by dion fortune. will see.

horrendously OT, so bye, thanks and sorry again,

[oahspe]

Well I dont believe we are trapped. That, as you say, is the patriarchal understanding, including the Gnostic perspective shared by many of the popular religions including Eastern--that nature and our bodies is a trap and we need to escape. I rather feel and am more attracted to Goddess spirituality which understands nature as sacred, and reality naturally recycles which is also sacred.

I doesn't matter what you believe. You are being recycled and your consciousness will be extracted after you die to run the machine. Also, Gnosticism isn't just another patriarchal bullshit control-paradigm like you seem to think. It is the fountainhead for all religious (including all Goddess shit), Philosophical & Scientific understanding we have achieved as human beings through our understanding of Nature. Gnosticism doesn't think Nature is evil it thinks Matter is evil, there's a big difference, and if you can't see that it's really not worth my time to discuss it any further with you.

[oahspe]

I found this on teh internets, must be truth:

"Aliester Crowley "our number is 11 and those who are with us", New Agers hold 11:11 to mean awakening?"

The Antichrist is the 11th horn 11x11=121

They blew the oil rig on Hitler's 121th birthday, Hitler was very much influenced by New Agers like Helena Blavatsky and Alice Ann Bailey (theosophists, luciferians) whose organization (lucis trust, formerly lucifer trust) presides over weekly meetigs held at the UN.

9/11/01 flight 11 crashed into the twin towers on "twos-day" the 11th (dualism) flight 77 crashed into the pentagon, pentagon is on the 77th meridian, The foundation stone for the pentagon was laid in a Masonic ceremony September 11 1941

Madrid train bombings took place 911 days after 9/11/01 on march 11th 2004 manhattan island was discovered on September 11th 1609 by Henry Hudson

10 is the alpha and the omega

God 9/11 is a numerological definition of skipping God Revelation 9:11 And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon."

-http://illuminuttyad.blogspot.com/2011/ ... s-gay.html

Clearly this man was pure evil.

[minderbinder]

Clearly this man was pure evil.

fombcfl (falling on my back chocking from laughing!!)
He simply must have been, if even his anus was gay
Probably RAW was true - "it's not the truth if it doesn't make you laugh", or somehing like this, sense wise

[flickedbic]

what are ways to protect against such or other ways of "psychic vampirism... (or) more or less useless confrontations or just the working together with some people... ".

-mindbender

Study N.L.P., practice N.L.P.
For useless confrontations; don't.
Recognize the patterns to avoid.
Notice the emotional energy of others.
Practice a martial art (Jeet Kune Do is good) and/or Qigong/Tai Chi.
Eat healthy.

It might help to read the books of someone like Zig Ziglar if one is being challenged at the workplace... I've found him very helpful in many respects.

Gnosticism... thinks Matter is evil

-Oahspe

I wonder how those Gnostics might feel; who believe they are made of pure evil... Do they not believe that matter is energy?

Blessings.

[teeko]

They follow Crowleys "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law."
or as LaVey said "We free them of such conflicts by making it clear that Satan—or God—meant them to live according to their inborn tendencies... from the theological point of view—we are evil individuals.” -churchofsatan.com

Well, I guess I agree...with LaVey I mean. Man is pretty 'evil' and if we are 'created in Gods image' then what does that say about 'him'? If God created All and Satan/etc. is part of that all then God created Satan for a reason and obviously if God is All Loving/etc. then Satan must be too right? Is Jesus and Judas the same person? What does Isis have to do with the masons and what do the masons have to do with the reptilians? What does the 'horizontal light' spectrum(shape of the reptilian eye allows for seeing beyond our prison of horizontal light-the visible spectrum for us)? If its not a masonic COMPASS then what is it? Hexagram? What about the Greater Key of Solomon and the Seals? They say they are for good, positive, but that they are powerful and have their own 'minds' and can start causing problems just by seeing them. I think it was Crowley that said having these 'squares' around without the knowledge to use them is very dangerous.

Then what of the rituals of the Satanic Bible, such as how “to Cause the Destruction of an Enemy", promoting revenge; etc. That sounds pretty shitty by my definitions.

I am still working on that whole 'forgiveness' thing. hahaha But I have always went with Eye for an Eye. Tooth for Tooth you hit me and I will hit you. Along those lines(despite never being in a fight before so I would get my ass beat. hahahhaa)

For myself; I do not see the value in Love under Will. I value love above everything; Love is my Will.

I do not believe 'Under' in this context is a declaration of worth. So I cannot agree with you there. I do agree Love being the All and the First in those regards, but I still see 93/93 as positive as Love Under Will sounds positive to me. I am not a free loving hippy though. hahaha

Would he? Or would he encourage freeing oneself from those bonds and following your will (the law) and go ahead and shit on her. Just because she doesn't will it doesn't mean you don't... it's not like one has placed their Will UNDER Love; right?

"You should have more power than your wife unless you are "too weak" to seek it..." is what some who follow such beliefs might say.

Hmmm, can't agree again. No clue really what he would say or do. That would probably depend on his mood at the time and if it was during his younger edgier days or when he was older. haha I don't think he would say to still shit on her though. What would that gain? I don't see this love under will thing as saying you should place your actions of Love behind those actions of your Will.

Well if the church said it then it must be true.

Then I read it on wiki also so its double true! hahaha Yeah, who the fuck knows if anything written about anything is 'real' anymore.

Summoning demons...this type of thing is used so heavily in many beliefs for a many good reason that why would you assume that the summoning of demons must be for a negative reason? Maybe some psychic vampire lets say is harassing you and you summon the demon for protection? Would that be a negative reason? Take something bad and use it for good. Whats wrong with that?

""May the New Year bring you courage to break your resolutions early! My own plan is to swear off every kind of virtue, so that I triumph even when I fall!"
— Aleister Crowley (Moonchild)
"I was not content to believe in a personal devil and serve him, in the ordinary sense of the word. I wanted to get hold of him personally and become his chief of staff."
— Aleister Crowley

First quote is classic comedy. Funny shit! But it could mean such a simple thing as not setting your goals so high you cant reach them.
Second quote is pretty funny too. 'personal devil' I think, means his own fucked up self. Not some red scaled horned god. And again, I kind like it. We all have the 'personal devil' inside of us and I would think its a better idea to know this creature as well as possible rather than to ignore it. What you cant see can hurt you.

I meant to gain psychic power by striking fear in others thru ones appearance and reputation; but in a job interview I will usually "mirror" the interviewer, matching their speed of speech and general body mechanics.

Ever been in the dating game? Putting on the costume to flaunt the fancy tail feathers for the ladies. I see it as the same. Ya know, animal style. If you arent the bigger fish at least you can puff up to look like it.

"The light is one and in that light shall we see light.
This is the light that turns the darkness into day."

Now anything with light, especially ONE light means Lucifer? What about the 7 Rays of Energy? With the first being Lord of Will and the second being Lord of Love.
http://www.lucistrust.org/en/books/a...t_alice_bailey



http://www.hollywoodinsiders.net/occult/c/cross.html

[flickedbic]

Well, I guess I agree... to use them is very dangerous.

I'm agnostic in regards to most all in that first paragraph; which is a doozy. Sounds like you have alot of research to do

As to your claim that;

Man is pretty 'evil'

... you say so. That is not my impression; however we may simply have different definitions of the word.

I debated (Christians mostly) alot when I was enthralled* with the Satanic Bible.
*To hold spellbound; captivate.
To enslave.
(Ohh "Enthralled" sounds alot like being "Entertained" or "Amused" by the "Holly wood" )

I debated a Christian who was standing speaking on a box in "Speakers Square" when I was in London regarding to Satanism vs. Christianity; and had much practice before it.

It gave me a rush (a feeling of power?) to lead people to question their faith; and honestly when you have a bit of intelligence it isn't hard to pose a question someone will have a hard time awnsering; especially in regards to faith.

Here's proof of my deeds in the form of a poem I wrote in those days; and a whole discussion underneath showing my thought processes then (to be read from the bottom up) here: http://www.diaryproject.com/entries/?63074

I don't necessarily agree with the above poem; or anything I wrote myself there (as music_man) anymore.

It was only after Atheism and near Satanism that I became Agnostic.

I even asked Jesus to show me he was real one day while riding my bike home from school. In the middle of my street was a piece of paper when I got home. I picked it up (as I had gotten in the habit of picking up and throwing away odd pieces of trash) and it was a paper for Jesus; the local gardener/landscaper!

Not only for this reason; I might say that I am somewhat skeptical of my Agnosticism.
Perhaps I might describe myself as a spiritual Agnostic... Then again I likely wouldn't; I now kind of have a "thing" about labels.

I have always went with Eye for an Eye. Tooth for Tooth.

LaVey said "Hate your enemies with a whole heart, and if a man smite you on one cheek, SMASH him on the other..." (escalate the conflict).

I'm not sure how much truth there is in the " An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" saying... but this just doesn't seem a very efficient methodology to me.

Spend ones' time exchanging blows; and by the time one turns around (perhaps "victorious"; perhaps not) one is at Deaths' door with nothing to show for ones' life but ones' wounds; and the wounds of ones' brother.

Also; It has been said by some that ones' enemy is really ones' greatest teacher...
Patience; Humility; Virtute; Flexibility... these are some of the foundations of true health and happiness, IMO.

I do not believe 'Under' in this context is a declaration of worth. So I cannot agree with you there...

Very well; however it is my thought that this is used often in this context. It is a bit slight of mouth... used often on the courts.

Man In Black Robe:"So; JOHN SMITH; you are being charged with illegally driving without a liscense. The fine/time is XYZ. DO YOU UNDERSTAND?"
AKA: Do you STAND UNDER THIS?
John Smith: Yes; I understand.
MIBR: Very well.

Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary (1913) :
"Understand
(v. t.)
To stand under; to support."

I do agree Love being the All and the First...

It almost looks first in that motto... but it is a typical deception in my eyes.

The motto "Love is the law, love under will." might also be written with equal meaning thusly: "Love under will is the law.".

I don't see this love under will thing as saying you should place your actions of Love behind those actions of your Will.

Under- adjective
24. beneath or on the underside: the under threads of the embroidery.
25. lower in position.
26. lower in degree, amount, etc.
27. lower in rank or condition.
28. subject to the control, effect, etc., as of a person, drug, or force: The hypnotist had her subject under at once. The patient was under as soon as he breathed the anesthetic.
Verb phrase
29. go under,
a. to give in; succumb; yield: She tried desperately to fight off her drowsiness, but felt herself going under.
b. to fail in business: After 20 years on the same corner they finally went under.

Synonyms: "below".

Summoning demons... Take something bad and use it for good. What's wrong with that?

Tea with demons. Haha. Dunno 'bro; we've all got brains we've gotta decide for ourselves what paths to go down, and how to handle the challanges of life.

Invoking a demon to "use it for good" is like trying to wash one's car with mud; and is likely to just get all involved more messy. It just doesn't seem too wise is my thought. Maybe read my post above on dealing with what some might call "psychic vampires".

Ever been in the dating game? Putting on the costume to flaunt the fancy tail feathers for the ladies. I see it as the same. Ya know, animal style. If you arent the bigger fish at least you can puff up to look like it.

Yea; it's commonly called "peacocking". Many pick-up-artists (notably Mystery) still use it.

Anyways; I think one can help more people and be happier and thus have a more pleasing voyage by being congruently loving and accepting of themselves and others without having to cultivate an image of terror for the purpose of gaining so-called "power"; which I don't think is as great as some imagine it to be when they hear the word being tossed around; especially by the satanically inclined.

Now anything with light, especially ONE light means Lucifer?

You tell me.
I know I won't drink anything that is "light"; as most of the artificial sweeteners are amazingly destructive of body and mind. One might scroogle "monsanto" in relation to this.

What about the 7 Rays of Energy?

Within theosophy there are seven rays of energy.

The seventh, and most powerful is Masonry:

"The seventh Ray of Ceremonial Order or Magic. Masons. Financiers. Great businessmen and organizers of all kinds."

Like I said earlier; it is not to be said that all Masons are Satanically inclined.
They are in a compartmentalized system; much like a bank. The Tellers don't necessarily know what the Managers do of the banks goals and agendas; and in turn the Managers don't know and are merely know what they are told by their superiors.

I might not even be so amazingly suprised if the Superiors themselves are compartmentalized under another "power". What that might be I don't know.

Are there any patterns forming that we can detect in the actions and beliefs of the "superiors/ enlightened ones" AKA influential higher-ups?

"Lucifer, the Light-bearer! Strange and mysterious name to give to the Spirit of Darkness! Lucifer, the Son of the Morning! Is it he who bears the Light, and with its splendors intolerable, blinds feeble, sensual, or selfish souls? Doubt it not!"

[Albert Pike, Morals and Dogma of the Ancient and Accepted Scottish Rite of Freemasonry, p. 321, 19th Degree of Grand Pontiff; Red Emphasis added]

When the Mason learns that the key to the warrior on the block is the proper application of the dynamo of living power, he has learned the mystery of his Craft. The seething energies of Lucifer are in his hands, and before he may step onward and upward, he must prove his ability to properly apply energy. He must follow in the footsteps of his forefather, Tubal-Cain, who with the mighty strength of the war god hammered his sword into a plowshare."

[Manly P. Hall, 33rd Degree, K.T., The Lost Keys of Freemasonry or The Secret of Hiram Abiff , Forward by Reynold E. Blight, 33rd Degree, K.T., Illustrations by J. Augustus Knapp, 32nd Degree, Macoy Publishing and Masonic Supply Company, Inc., Richmond, Virginia, p. 48; Emphasis Added]

Note that Hall makes reference to Tubal-Cain, above. Let us review this sentence, as it also reveals Satanism. The Mason must "follow in the footsteps of his forefather, Tubal-Cain, who with the mighty strength of the war god hammered his sword into a plowshare." In the Masonic Quiz Book, the candidate is asked this question: "Who was Tubal Cain?" Answer: "He is the Vulcan of the pagans." [William P. Peterson, Editor, Masonic Quiz Book: "Ask Me Brother", Chicago, Illinois, Charles T. Power Company, 1950, p. 18, 88, 131, 213; also found in John Yarker, The Arcane Schools: A Review of their Origin and Antiquity: With a General History of Freemasonry and Its Relation to the Theosophic Scientific and Philosophic Mysteries, Belfast, Ireland, William Tait, 1909, p. 30; also found in A. R. Chambers, Editor, Questions and Answers, 1972, p. 237; also found in Malcom Duncan, Duncan's Ritual of Freemasonry , New York, David McKay Company, Inc., n.d. 3rd Edition, p. 94.]

In fact, in the Third Degree of Master Mason, Tubal-Cain is the password given.

Other than identifying Freemasonry with paganism in this sentence, what is the meaning of the Vulcan of the pagans? This question is very important, because Manly P. Hall advises the Mason that, once he has the seething energies of Lucifer in his hands, he is to walk in Tubal-Cain's footsteps. Hall makes it sound like Tubal-Cain is one of the Greek gods, does he not? And, we know conclusively that Tubal-Cain is Vulcan of the Pagans. Let us review who Vulcan of the pagans is, by looking within occult sources.

"Vulcan was a sun deity who was associated with fire, thunderbolts and light. The festival in honor of him was called the Vulcania in which human sacrifices were offered." [Percival George Woodcock, Short Dictionary of Mythology, New York, Philosophical Library, p. 152]. "According to Diel, he bears a family relationship to the Christian devil." [J.E. Cirlot, translated by Jack Sage, A Dictionary of Symbols , New York, Dorset Press, 1991, p. 362]. "It is fascinating to know that he married Venus, another name for Lucifer or the devil ." [Woodcock, op. cit., p. 150-151; Emphasis added]

Wow! In one fell swoop, we learn that Manly P. Hall tells the Mason that he can have the seething energies of Lucifer in his hands, and then tells him to follow in the footsteps of the "Christian devil", to whom "human sacrifices " are offered!

-CUTTING EDGE MINISTRIES

TITLE: MASONRY PROVEN CONCLUSIVELY TO BE WORSHIP OF LUCIFER, SATAN! Part 1 of 2
http://www.cuttingedge.org/free11.html
^Also goes into the compartmentalization issue.

Finally; Alice Bailey; who first wrote of the 7 Rays, wrote another book called Externalisation of the Hierarchy, and on p. 107:

Alice Bailey identifies Lucifer as 'the ruler of humanity', the 'son of the morning' and 'the prodigal son'.

-http://www.spiritual-wholeness.org/chur ... ucifer.htm

Websites quoted don't mean that I agree with everything on the website; I just don't have all the books in front of me in hard-copy...

Blessings.

[minderbinder]

thank you, flickedbic, sounds really somehow reasonable!
Started with NLP once or twice, somehow it won't set roots in my mind, i'll give it another try! :thumbs:

[Moonbreeze]

They follow Crowleys "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law."
or as LaVey said "We free them of such conflicts by making it clear that Satan—or God—meant them to live according to their inborn tendencies... from the theological point of view—we are evil individuals.” -churchofsatan.com

A Conversation with Richard Ramirez--The Night Stalker--Reported by Mike Watkiss

You should look at the other related videos about this serial killer who would paint satanic symbols over his killings in blood.

he also had a bad childhood!

IF people tell you you/we are evil...do you believe it? WHO is telling us this is what we need to explore.