magick versus empathy

[minderbinder]

goat shaped candles all night.

i KNEW i missed something really crucial!!!

i'm after this stuff since around 30 years and sometimes i lost every little last bit that any of this crap (sorry, just reinvoking my feelings at that time), but, i don't know where from, it always returns and snakes around and spikes and bites ...

Since i need to give my ego a little fodder, too, as long as i have it (the ego, fodder seems never short ) i feel like i've taken the round trip around the borders of the hidden land(want to put a ck in there but it doesn't fit ), maybe with somen side trips (dangerous field, be careful not to take a walk on a land slide! doop-doo-doop, doo-doop-doo-doop, hoho) and arrived finally where i started and so i say, at the moment at least, i think i'll stay with fun stuff like neal slade's, it seems to me as good as all that black-robed-nailing-cats-to-the-floor stuff, and if it doesn't work - well, then it's still fun and nice, at least if one has a sense of sillyness like i do!
arr, i better stop, got the fever, fucking climate change

[Moonbreeze]

Interesting what you say teeko. I didn't know your past to do with this. I use the term magic quite a bit and will explain my interpretation of it below.

I have always felt uneasy with magicK. Cant put my finger on it--though as you see i have had a fukin good try above LOL

I just sense something uncomfortable with it. Bit like how is explained above how as soon as 'reults' happens it corrupts people to want more and more power. So it is a simultanous thing of people training their will AND getting results which is recipe for E G O mania. I WILL. And when you look at the people who have made Will into a religion LIKE Crowley, and he influenced Hitler---that would be good enough to feel un-easy with all that

In 2004, somehow I became intrigued with Chaos Magick, and I started dippin my toes into it which lincluded buying some books, and contacting magickians, or Chaotes and asking questions--which I am famous for. What i FOUND was very dull people who would only seemingly be interested in results for gettin a job, and gettin laid. More than one said they thought people wanting to unload their problems were psychic vampires, and some would not do any healing---Phil Hines said that too. So I found it all very self centred. And I have never been at ease with the concept of the magic circle, bcause my spiritual experince with psychedelics feels SO open to nature and the universe, it seems very paranoid all the worry of evil spirits and whatnot.

So my interpretation of magic. I often will say magic mushrooms, and how magical nature looks when having eat them. Like fairy land, and that's magical, right? So I want to explore magical sense that is not coopted by the Crowleyians and all that trip. It is a far more freer magic connected with the Goddess. It is more yielding and spontaneous, interactive and playful.

[teeko]

Guess we need to rename it then? haha

Magik minus the 'c'?

Magic to me will always be a stage act.
Magick to me always referred to ceremony/ritual(which I am not against as long as its positive).

Be that Crowley made the change of name and your uneasy feelings with him, Bible(s) saying to stay away from magic and sorcery...plus other things - maybe some of those are why magick the word does not sit well with you.

How many people have a problem with the word God or god? A shit ton! If the actual holy name is unpronounceable and must never be uttered or written, and this was the word given(translated? tricked?) to use in place of it...well that starts another thread somewhere else. haha

But its just a word.

Its just a number. I do not think our brains can handle much more for a little while more - numbers, words...you can string a thousand words together and not be able to describe the color blue or what pins'n'needles of jumping into the hot-tub from the pool feels like, or falling in love or your first orgasm or forever laughing at fart jokes because since your born one of the first pains is gas and that relief is fucking good stuff. Just words. We gotta think/feel beyond that. The words only have the weight we put into them. Kind of reminds me of Who Framed Roger Rabbit - where if people do not watch the cartoons the characters die...

[Moonbreeze]

Crowley had no respect for women. His mum apparently startedcalling him the 'Beast' when he was 14, which is when a boy is starting to become more sexual. A relationshp with mum is very important, and for her to equate him with the 'devil' obviously made him think 'well fuck YEAH. I'll show you devil ma!! And from there he would drive two of his wives into a mental institution, beat others, and have them shit and piss on him which he eat...too! Nice huh...?

Hitler, also liked being shit on. yes. I see a pattern.

he dies with a serious heroin habit, and yet claimed to have super will...? So what does that make my Aunt Lil who gave up her 40 a day ciggie habit?!

We are lookin at abuse. Damage. A soul in need of healing not 'magick'!

[oahspe]

Magick versus empathy? why "versus"... it is my experience that the two are not necessarily conversely related however, "empathy" as defined as the ability to pick up on or identify with the thoughts of other beings is definitely something that needs to be controlled even in a "non-magickal sense" or your mind would be like a broken radio which can't stay tuned to any particular station, and thus wouldn't be of much use to anyone..

[oahspe]

http://www.metahistory.org/GAIA%20SO...aGnosisOne.php
Interesting article on "bio-mysticism", the unity of science and Gnosis, and the work of Wilhelm Reich:

The return to a Gnostically informed animism is not contrary to the modern scientific exploration of Gaia theory, and may be essential to it. The Sophianic vision of the Earth can enhance science by adding human participation and empathy to instrument-supported research, data accumulation, mathematical modelling, and the logical-analytical proof process. Those who would argue that empathy with nature is contrary to objective science do so at the risk of endorsing a disembodied, inhumane type of science. This approach recalls the insistance by Frances Bacon that we torture nature, "put her on the rack," in order to extract her secrets. This cold, inquisitorial attitude is consistent with the off-planet metaphysics demonstrated by salvationist religion since the Middle Ages, and adopted by science since the Enlightenment. As Theodore Roszak observed:

Neither scientist nor theologian integrated the human and natural in a way that yielded a sense of our kinship with the universe and our ethical observation to the living planet. There is in fact a deep psychological continuity between the Christian hostility to paganism and the rise of modern science. Both are committed to the desacralization of the natural world. ("Nature and Nature's God," in Alexandria 5, edited by David Fiedler)

[i-jinx]

Crowley was a pathological bullshitter. Many stories about him, originated from him (The "German spy" story did the rounds for a long time). I'm sure he would be happy to know he was still providing material to throw into the latest conspiracy theories.

There could be a dozen different books describing Crowley's character and interests. They could all be different and contradictory, and yet all true. Not many humans get so multi-faceted. And yes, some of those versions describe one very fucked up dude.

But what exactly are you condemning him for? Being a pervert? Doing "ugly", "nasty" things with consenting (although similarly fucked up) adults?

What criminal acts against sentient beings do you condemn him for? Without evidence of those, all this breathless "Devil!" referencing, is just religious intolerance. (Oh sorry, am I worshiping the wrong horned god? Can you please direct me to the right one?)

[minderbinder]

@Oahspe: good article, interesting site - thanks!

the ability to pick up on or identify with the thoughts of other beings is definitely something that needs to be controlled even in a "non-magickal sense" or your mind would be like a broken radio which can't stay tuned to any particular station, and thus wouldn't be of much use to anyone..

isn't that the crucial point in all that magick/k/c stuff at all? not to forget to begin with one's own thoughts? if i got that right.
so very simple and so very, very hard.

Regarding the "empathy" with other "beings" i like ramsay dukes "the little book of demons", leaving aside all that other theoretical stuff in it because i can't say much on it. i'm pretty unable to read between the lines in foreign language books.

[Moonbreeze]

Crowley was a pathological bullshitter. Many stories about him, originated from him (The "German spy" story did the rounds for a long time). I'm sure he would be happy to know he was still providing material to throw into the latest conspiracy theories.

There could be a dozen different books describing Crowley's character and interests. They could all be different and contradictory, and yet all true. Not many humans get so multi-faceted. And yes, some of those versions describe one very fucked up dude.

But what exactly are you condemning him for? Being a pervert? Doing "ugly", "nasty" things with consenting (although similarly fucked up) adults?

What criminal acts against sentient beings do you condemn him for? Without evidence of those, all this breathless "Devil!" referencing, is just religious intolerance. (Oh sorry, am I worshiping the wrong horned god? Can you please direct me to the right one?)

I have heard this before the--hey he is just takin the piss. he is inscrutiable. This implies Crowley didn;t have any integrity. Are you trying to tell me that ALl he said had no meaning and was just used to piss people off? And if that were true, is that supposed to add to his character? I mean why do people rush to this dude's defense? I dont get it, because i have never really been attracted to him.

But what exactly are you condemning him for? Being a pervert? Doing "ugly", "nasty" things with consenting (although similarly fucked up) adults?

Look, IF you had a child and found out there were into being shit and pissed on how would you feel...seriously? Answer honestly. Would it disturb you in any way?
Aren't you intrigued what this means --this need. And I ask from a personal past who is not a stranger to --not being shit on--but a sexual addiction with freaky desires. So I have experience of knowing intense lust where you can almost feel possessed at times.
have you followed this thread from the beginning? If so you will know I am concerned that 9/11 seems to be deeply connected with Crowley and his...errrr, magick shit. So I think it very important to look deep into this.

What criminal acts against sentient beings do you condemn him for? Without evidence of those, all this breathless "Devil!" referencing, is just religious intolerance. (Oh sorry, am I worshiping the wrong horned god? Can you please direct me to the right one?)

Pay attention! I have mentioned his two wives he drove fukin mad! ETC

And talking Horned God. the Horned God of the Goddess spirituality is not the same Crowley was into! If you want to see people who have authentic understanding of Goddess spirituality first look--do they respect women? What are their actions and words towards women.

[teeko]

(Oh sorry, am I worshiping the wrong horned god? Can you please direct me to the right one?)

Down here in my pants!

So what kind of sex is good clean vanilla sex? No scat play. No bdsm. No watersports. No 3-somes. No facials. No fellatio or cunnilingus. No sodomy.

Fuck, whats left? Missionary style? Is doggy style allowed? Its got the word doggy in it which might make it sodomy...

And don't you like dudes so wouldnt that be 'bad' and 'devilish'? Many people in this world would say they would rather eat their wives shit then have another dudes penis in there mouth. I will pass on both of those but just making a comparison.

I say, if you and your partner wanna see what getting shit on feels like then have at it. No harm, no foul. Now if you started shitting on your kids then you most likely have a problem.

edit:
re: Crowley and shit eating...what if he had some kind of deficiency that was causing him to crave feces? Maybe he could not digest grains and his body was telling him to eat other peoples shit so he could get the nutrients? Animals do this ALL the time - and if we ARE part of this planet Earth, then we ARE animals and we should have no problem with eating shit...am I right?