an active entheogen brewed from ergot infected rye?

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entheogenic-gnosis
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an active entheogen brewed from ergot infected rye?

Post by entheogenic-gnosis » Sat Jan 03, 2015 11:12 am

Albert Hoffman, R. Gordon wasson and others speculated that the entheogenic drink behind the mysteries at eleusis was a fermented beverage brewed from rye infected with ergot. Since ergot fungi contain several alkaloids which cause convulsions and ergotism Hoffman speculated that they would have had to float hot oil on top of the beverage, then the hot oil would leach out the unwanted alkaloids and was then siphoned off and disgaurded.

Personally I feel the entheogen of the eleusian mysteries was some species of psilocybin containing fungi, which was brewed into a beverage to conceal its identity. (There was a man named alcibiades who was aressted for distributing the eleusian mystery at a diner party, if the mystery was in fact an ergot beer i dont see how alcibiades could have obtained it, if it was a mushroom it could have been growing on his lawn) But hoffmans theory got me thinking:

Is it even possible to produce an active psychedelic by brewing a "beer" from ergot infected rye?
(Of coarse leaching out the unwanted alkaloids with hot oil)

Has anyone ever tried to recreate what Hoffman believed was the entheogen behind the eleusian mysteries?

- E. Borodin

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Re: an active entheogen brewed from ergot infected rye?

Post by Dr Zzz » Sat Jan 03, 2015 5:57 pm

Hi.

The very fact that Eleusis initiation involved a psychoactive ingredient is itself a mere speculation.

My point is that the whole context points to another kind of way to reach altered states of consciousness. The deities involved are all from the Underworld, the kukeon composition itself points to the Two Goddesses (a cereal for Demeter, and a mint, which is in the mythological context of Persephone), the fact that the two ingredients have to be mixed, which involves a krater, a vessel that has a lot of underworld associations. The setting itself is some kind of underground chamber.

To me it points to a kind of meditation which was common for the greeks when it came to initiation and healing : incubation. It's a way of staying consciouss while in a state of sleep with or without dreams. It's similar, if not identical to the tibetan yogas of dream an sleep, to the indian yoga nidra, and partly with the western lucid dreaming teks (on of them is actually named incubation).

As for the beer, I admit I have no idea. If there is a way to remove the unwanted, then to brew, I do no think that the resulting product will have anything to do with Eleusis.
Last edited by Dr Zzz on Sun Jan 04, 2015 11:23 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: an active entheogen brewed from ergot infected rye?

Post by entheogenic-gnosis » Sun Jan 04, 2015 5:19 am

If Kykeon was not a psychoactive than why was Alcibiades arrested for distributing it at a dinner party?

I doubt he was distributing a form of meditation....



-E. Borodin

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Re: an active entheogen brewed from ergot infected rye?

Post by entheogenic-gnosis » Sun Jan 04, 2015 5:49 am

The most convincing theory about the nature of kykeon,results from extensive research by Gordon Wasson, Albert Hofmann and Carl Ruck. In 'The Road to Eleusis' (2) they argue that the parasitic fungus ergot,found on particular wild grasses, is the psychoactive component of kykeon. It would have been simple for an Eleusinian priest to collect the ergot from the wild grass growing near to the temple, grind it into a powder and add it to the kykeon. The theory is further supported by the fact that ergot is commonly found on grain, Demeter was the goddess of grain, and ears of grain featured prominently in the ritual. (Q.)

In a recorded lecture by Terence mckenna I recall him mentioning a theory involving the list of ingrediants, where the first letter of each ingrediant came to spell the Greek word for mushroom (I think the word was MIKO) though I cant recall who he said presented this theory.

I'm still in favor of Albert Hoffman, Carl Ruck and R. Gordon wasson in the matter of kykeon being psychedelic, though to debate this was not my intention in this post, I was simply trying to enquirer as to weather a psychedelic "beer" could even be produced by brewing ergot infected rye into a beer.

-E. Borodin

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Re: an active entheogen brewed from ergot infected rye?

Post by Dr Zzz » Sun Jan 04, 2015 12:06 pm

This is not the place for such a debate, you're right.
If you want to keep talking about that without "polluting" the thread just PM me.

I'll just answer the two points you adressed.

- Alcibiades was accused of profaning the mysteries. Only the authors you mention say that, in the context of their hypothesis, it could very well mean that he gave the secret entheogen to drink.
Most scholars read this declaration as meaning that he celebrated the mysteries privately, at his own party. Thoses mysteries were civic rituals for Athens, that had to be organised by the State.
IF an enthogen was part of the ritual it would of course have been included in the trangression. But it is not in itself necessary to explain the accusations agains Alcibiades.
Again Alcibiades was a pupil of Socrates, which had all kind of links with the practice of incubation. Maybe Alcibiades was practicing in his own circle a kind of Persephone related spiritual practice that was too similar to the civic mysteries to be acceptable.

- I vaguely remember something about the spell you mention, perhaps from the same source ? No way to be sure. The word for mushroom is mukês.

Back to the point. It's been a long time since my last read of The Road to Eleusis, but I think I remember the authors telling that the dangerous compounds can be removed pretty simply.
Something like a water infusion that you have to discard and then the grain is clean (and so can be added to the kukeon) ?
Like I said I'm not sure (and I don't feel like going through the book again right now), but you can brew that ? No ?

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Re: an active entheogen brewed from ergot infected rye?

Post by Dr Zzz » Mon Jan 05, 2015 2:19 pm

Hey! For some reason a famous online book store just recommanded me another Ruck book about Eleusis. Call it fate...

It seems that he revised his theory, and in this 2006 work thinks that we're talking psylo and aminata, not ergot.

The book is "Sacred Mushrooms Of The Goddess and The Secrets of Eleusis"

Well, with the "Apples of Apollo" and his book on Mithras Ruck certainly finds amanitas everywhere ;)

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Re: an active entheogen brewed from ergot infected rye?

Post by entheogenic-gnosis » Wed Jan 07, 2015 9:16 am

Thanks for the feedback!

If you could point me towards a good book regarding eleusis that was not written by an entheogen enthusiast it would be much appreciated.

Ill for sure look into the books you mentioned, I was not aware of the 2006 revision and will look into that as soon as I get a chance as well.

-E. Borodin

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Re: an active entheogen brewed from ergot infected rye?

Post by Dr Zzz » Wed Jan 07, 2015 4:37 pm

Excuse my english in advance. I live in France, and due to events you prolly heard about, I'm thinking a lot right know, and it is hard to concentrate.

I think focusing on Eleusis is an error. Let me explain.

The reason why there is so much emphasis on the mysteries of Eleusis is that Eleusis was Athens. Athens is the part of the ancient greek world we have the most data about.
The Athenians were quite a great power at some point in antiquity, and they did hell of good job when it came to propaganda.
Add to that Socrates and Plato, famous athenians, considered by westerners as their intellectual ancestors.

So Athens is quite the tip of the greek iceberd. Some scholars talked about an "atheno-centrism" that is giving us very partial image of the ancients. What I'm trying to say is that there were Persephone mysteries, elsewere, if not everywere. So if you want a clear picture, you need a bigger picture. So instead of recommanding a book on Eleusis I can only tell you to read on Persephone or Orphism.

If this is OK for you, I'll try to provide a title that could be used as a good starting point.
Right now I'm exhausted after trying for hours to figure what is more dangerous: Islamist Fascism or French Nationalism ?
I need sleep :-D

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Re: an active entheogen brewed from ergot infected rye?

Post by entheogenic-gnosis » Thu Jan 08, 2015 9:28 am

Thank you for the response,

I think its terrible what happened in France, and my condolences are with you and the French people. I appreciate the response even in light of recent events.

This is why I feel entheogens are important for existance, when on an entheogen the walls are torn down and you are able to see that this person is just like me, and that our differences are petty. We are facing issues like climate change, hunger and diseases, and if we cant work together the human race is doomed, even if we don't destroy each other through war, if we don't work together our species dies with the sun.

When ever you feel its appropriate I would very much appreciate if you could recomend some books.

In the mean time my sympathies go out to you and the people of France.

-E. Borodin

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Re: an active entheogen brewed from ergot infected rye?

Post by MyNameIsntSam » Wed Feb 03, 2016 4:14 pm

The Road To Eleusis has had AFOAF investing a good bit of thought in the activity of the possible Kykeon, as well as Lysergics recollection of the Ergot Wine experience she has posted/Vlogged. But there is conflicts riddled with the experiences of A. Hoffman and A. Shulgin with the synthetic isomers of LSA, and teks that have been worked over the years with MGS/HBWRS.

Hoffman and Shulgin had both either by synthetic or isolative means experienced the substances, and noted rather poor or dismissable experiences with it. Of course there are many out there that have had it work out with MGS/HBWRS, but there are many variables in these sources and it is more of a gamble than anything. Lately there have been an abundance of teks involving Acetaldehyde-containing substances (sherrys and mint extracts mostly) but breaks back down in the presence of oxygen.

Maybe the end of these rites which included libations also included various alcohols? Its possible that a certain alcohol metabolite could have kept its structure enough to assist with the bonding of LSA in the bloodstream, similar to how cocaine changes structurally when enjoyed with copious amounts of alcohol over a period of time.

Just a bit of a musing thought from AFOAF.

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