Salvia space is just our imagination?

This is the place to discuss Salvia divinorum, splendins, and the other psychoactive salvias.
Jupe
Posts: 1766
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2011 10:41 am
Location: Santa Barbara

Re: Salvia space is just our imagination?

Post by Jupe » Sun Jun 30, 2013 11:58 pm

"Digitalizable means "can be substituted by a computer"........."

Ive been wading through some reading on consciousness, how it can arise from our neurons, whether its dependent on quantity or quality of connections, how it emerges from seemingly random electrical patterns..(non programmed)....

...its cool cause I have one I can experiment with!!! haha/// and we all do...

it seems that until we understand how/where consciousness arises....(strict biology, UDA, soul or whatever......we wont be able to duplicate it....or get strong AI...which is sort of the holy grail for some people.....haha(only if its got some morals too)

check out the Chinese Room WIKI page.......

What does it mean to understand something? I mean, even a simple number, like 1. Like one beer. One cold beer.
What understands, and can then manipulate that symbol? Nested pattern recognition filters? I dunno.

User avatar
orinn
Posts: 111
Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2012 11:58 am

Re: Salvia space is just our imagination?

Post by orinn » Mon Jul 01, 2013 8:10 am

the trouble with everything being in ones imagination is that it doesn't alllow other entities to have experience regardless of ones own existence.

ie, it is ultimately egoic. :?

Does a tree falling in the forest make a sound even if there is no one there to hear it? or does the universe exist beyond our sensual perception?

For me, Salvia answers this question with a resounding YES!! :shock:

Gaia theory for example, the earth/mother nature as a person. Why do shamans talk to plants? because they can. Even roads and cities have personality,

but we need to be somewhat beyond the confines of a heavily binding ego to appreciate these things. :geek:

the astonishment of the dmt traveller on being confronted by extra terrestrials, water/earth spirits that are older than mankind, the universe is full of variation and full of consciousness! :idea:

yes, you can make the universe disappear by stopping thinking/projecting archetypes, but that doesnt mean it it actually disappeared, it just disappeared from your consciousness.

ultimately, the universe does and doesnt exist simultaneously, its certainly not subject to a does it/doesnt it dualistic debate.

Personally I believe dualistic deliberation belongs to the previous conditioned generatrions. we can go beyond that!! :P :P :P

User avatar
salvialover24
Posts: 1963
Joined: Thu Oct 13, 2011 5:46 am
Location: Europa
Contact:

Re: Salvia space is just our imagination?

Post by salvialover24 » Mon Jul 01, 2013 4:37 pm

We don't need to understand how the brain function to copy it, by betting on a substitution level. I don't know if computationalism is true, but non computationalism has to invoke infinite actualities, and we have not found any evidence for one. If we bet on any physical laws, we bet on computationalism, as the laws of physics are computable, so it is a very weak hypothesis.

And once we bet on it, or assumed it for the sake of the argument, we can explain a lot, including why we cannot explain consciousness, in any way. In fact, if we accept some definition, it can be argued that the machine already knows that. I think indeed that the sigularity is in the past. Nothing is more clever than a virgin computer, we can just make it more idiot, by installing windows or anything ...

The chinese room is welll refuted already by Hofstadter and Dennett. Searle confused level of description. If I can emulate Einstein by playing with Einstein brain, I am still not Einstein!

I don't say comp is true, all what I say is that IF comp is true, THEN Plato and the mystics are correct, and the aristotelian materialists or naturalists are wrong. The physical reality is not the real deep things, it is the border of something simpler, deeper, and "more real", and it is, in a nutshell, an *infinity* of "matrices", which can already be proved to exist in arithmetic, like the universal dovetailer.

And Orin, yes, we can go beyond dualism, but not up to the point to say a contradiction like the U exists and does not exists, which makes not much sense and allow to say what we want. Computationalism leads to ontologic monism (just the numbers) and there is no more primary physical universe, only a web of dreams, and universal dreamer (assuming comp). But local universes like our have all the chance of still existing in a deeper epistemological sense. The point is that it is testable, and somehow, quantum mechanics (Everett formulation, that is without "wave packet reduction") confirms it up to now. QM does not just confirms comp, but it saves it from solipsism. So no worry, "salvia is right": the pin in the forest makes some noise even if nobody is there to listen to it, it just needs dreams coherent enough, and empirically we can bet on them, and arithmetically, we cannot avoid them, apparently.

User avatar
salvialover24
Posts: 1963
Joined: Thu Oct 13, 2011 5:46 am
Location: Europa
Contact:

Re: Salvia space is just our imagination?

Post by salvialover24 » Mon Jul 01, 2013 4:41 pm

Also, it is not because WIKI said it, or even salvia said it that it is true or valid. Those are argument per authority but I guess you all know that ...

User avatar
tushaar
Posts: 84
Joined: Tue Oct 23, 2012 7:55 am

Re: Salvia space is just our imagination?

Post by tushaar » Wed Jul 03, 2013 1:55 pm

What we all have in common - We have done salvia, and we all know that we can't really bring outside here - inside. Atleast that is what swim has found out, and re-discovers every time salvia reveals the nooks and crannies between the reality.

Now, can we languagize the answer, the origin, the point of this temporary "school" ? No, I don't think so. I think the only thing possible is to point towards answer (which is salvia or dmt or whatever revealing experience)
But to formulate an answer? No is my answer.

What do you guys think?


peace

2ofme
Posts: 75
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2011 11:16 am

Re: Salvia space is just our imagination?

Post by 2ofme » Wed Jul 03, 2013 5:28 pm

Yes I agree.

If we had the answer here then there would be no point of here.

User avatar
salvialover24
Posts: 1963
Joined: Thu Oct 13, 2011 5:46 am
Location: Europa
Contact:

Re: Salvia space is just our imagination?

Post by salvialover24 » Thu Jul 04, 2013 2:44 am

I tend to agree too.

There is a sort of answer, but if we communicate it, then it becomes false. It is non communicable and the wise will remain silent.

What we can do, after, or before, is to conceive some theory (hypothesis, assumption, definition) capable of explaining why introspective entities, like universal machines, are confronted to a similar phenomenon. Actually I wrote, a long time ago, before I knew about salvia, a book (in french, but it is under translation) on this, "the secret of the amoeba", where I explain that machine can access to non provable truth about them (and where the physical laws comes from). Swim's salvia experience confirms some aspect of this, but swim is too much biased to infer anything from that. I have tried to explain a little bit on this in the simulation thread of kedabra and in the UDA thread. It is my job: interviewing the mystic machine. They too have to remain silent on some fundamental points. It might be that some human problems come from the fact that semi-illuminated humans talked too much, then special interests exploit this maximally.

User avatar
tushaar
Posts: 84
Joined: Tue Oct 23, 2012 7:55 am

Re: Salvia space is just our imagination?

Post by tushaar » Thu Jul 04, 2013 3:34 pm

Light is our home
Darkness is our fear
Both together are an adventure




Have a nice evening. An evening among many, growing closer to going back :)

User avatar
salvialover24
Posts: 1963
Joined: Thu Oct 13, 2011 5:46 am
Location: Europa
Contact:

Re: Salvia space is just our imagination?

Post by salvialover24 » Wed Jul 10, 2013 2:27 pm

What is need to go back where you know that you are already there?

Ah Yes! To Remember!
My Avatar Always Forget !

:)

User avatar
orinn
Posts: 111
Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2012 11:58 am

Re: Salvia space is just our imagination?

Post by orinn » Sat Jul 13, 2013 4:15 pm

Achintya Bheda Abheda.

translates as simultaneous oneness and difference.

simultaneously existing and not existing.

when we experience salvia, we understand things in a wonderful way. :P

then we come back here and try to work it out because we've been seperated from the understanding.

salvia gave us eyes and we want to deliberate on the mother through those eyes?

we need to realise our own defective vision, how we judge others and envy them, and don't give them the right to exist.

The universe is complete because of everyone and everythings existence.

Salvia is worthy of our selfless dedication, this is understanding, not armchair philosophising :geek:

Post Reply