Salvia space is just our imagination?

This is the place to discuss Salvia divinorum, splendins, and the other psychoactive salvias.
shakeNbake0
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Salvia space is just our imagination?

Post by shakeNbake0 » Fri May 24, 2013 5:29 pm

It sure feels real to me, way too real. I see people on this forum talking about these beings as actually existing outside of our imagination. I think it just produces like a glitch in the brain's activity. I think salvia trips are just creations of our subconscious(es). Just like dreams. The plant reacts on a complex part of our brain, just like coffee, or even chemicals we can create to alter our mind..here's an interesting theory I read on another forum:

" People that experience a variant of "layers/slices" trips experience layers of what they perceive to be "reality", stacking on top of one another. They may see ahead of them, outlines or images of themselves reacting to things they haven't felt yet. But, sure enough, they fit the outline/image.When your eye sends an image to your brain, the image combined with your nervous system stimulate your brain to perceive this one split-second of "reality" or 3d space. I believe that Salvia slows down this process. I think that the images and nervous messages sent to your brain stimulate your brain, and stimulate it for longer than it is supposed to. Normally, perhaps, an image and nervous message would be sent to your brain, and it would be immediately replaced with another image and sense of space. Well, I think that salvia causes the images and feelings to sort of "stick" in the brain. Hang back longer than they're meant to. Resulting in multiple messages stimulating the brain at once. This means that a person would experience multiple 3d spaces at once. This would mean that the user was experiencing 4 dimensions. The closest comparison I can make is to an old projector. The ones that had a wheel in which you'd place images. Let's say that the images were, instead, instances of 3d space. The images placed in the slide were an image and feelings sent to your brain. Normally [sober], one would perceive one of these 3d spaces at any point in time. However, being on salvia would be the equivalent of widening the range of the amount of images that were projected at the same time. Using an arbitrary number of 5, let's say that the brain perceived 5 images and feelings at once, rather than 1 [sober]. As the wheel scrolled, one new image would appear, one old image would move from your sight range, and the images that didn't disappear would move back a slot. That is what the user experiences when they move and change their field of view, resulting in more messages being sent to their brain. To people on this trip [or, at least me], it would look like reality, perhaps, stacked on top of itself, or rested vertically on each other."

What are your thoughts on this?

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tushaar
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Re: Salvia space is just our imagination?

Post by tushaar » Sat May 25, 2013 1:46 am

As far as I know how to put to words what salvia is for me - a trigger to get out of body and being sorta aware at the same time. Spirit realm. Getting out through the fleshy layers. No nervous impulses , electric brain signals or anything, that's all scientific made up words to explain smth. Our body is just a machine; it overheats, freezes (temperature), malfunctions (illnesses) and provides functions for whoever observer mounts it; an avatar. I've been told, no insisted, that our body is not our own.

Sphere
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Re: Salvia space is just our imagination?

Post by Sphere » Sun May 26, 2013 5:59 pm

I've recently saw something which made me wonder if any one of us can have our bodies shared by another "soul", for lack of a better word, and that this is not uncommon.

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minderbinder
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Re: Salvia space is just our imagination?

Post by minderbinder » Wed May 29, 2013 12:42 pm

there's this magick dude, he says: it's all in your head, you just have no idea how big your head is!

i just can't say if i can wholeheartedly support that or if i only wish i could ...
Bhagwan told me not to worry. If i do it'll make me sorry. Alright.

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salvialover24
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Re: Salvia space is just our imagination?

Post by salvialover24 » Wed Jun 05, 2013 4:44 am

Sphere wrote:I've recently saw something which made me wonder if any one of us can have our bodies shared by another "soul", for lack of a better word, and that this is not uncommon.
Yes, Turner reports similar things, and swim's report contains many many one. It is the most typical feature for swim, on salvia. Swim dies each time, he has the choice for coming back, but he stays there. It is always another soul which comes back.

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salvialover24
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Re: Salvia space is just our imagination?

Post by salvialover24 » Wed Jun 05, 2013 4:57 am

minderbinder wrote:there's this magick dude, he says: it's all in your head, you just have no idea how big your head is!

i just can't say if i can wholeheartedly support that or if i only wish i could ...

May be we should come back to UDA. I can explain that the physical reality is indeed in your head. I provide a constructive proof, in the sense that reality, if we assume digital mechanism, is shown to be in the head of all universal machines (in the computer theory sense). That makes mechanism testable: just program a universal machine to look inward, and compare the physical reality she finds with what we can observe. up to now, it works pretty well. the drawback is that it leads quickly to hard math, the type beyond what we can manage today.

Swim reminds an experience where an entity told him that nothing (physical?) exist. He replied asking "even the salvia plant?". They said "even the salvia plant". It is paradoxical: in many experiences, the first thing swim learns to be an illusion is the fact that he has smoked salvia. There, swim never believes that the reason he is there is due to salvia. It would be like believing that a decision made in a dream can alter reality.

So the salvia space might be "just" our imagination, but perhaps no more than the salvia plant itself, and the consensual reality in the neighborhood. The real question is who is the one talking about "our imagination". I have some idea on that ...

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minderbinder
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Re: Salvia space is just our imagination?

Post by minderbinder » Wed Jun 05, 2013 12:30 pm

That makes mechanism testable: just program a universal machine to look inward, and compare the physical reality she finds with what we can observe. up to now, it works pretty well. the drawback is that it leads quickly to hard math, the type beyond what we can manage today.
I'm a little thick, i fear - could you provide a "real world" example? When i, as the only machine that's available to me, look inwards, i mention a lot of pictures, words, sounds, and emotions or just what has to be described as feelings. some inter-related, some single, so to say - what to compare all these "objects" to in the physical reality? The car in my mind with the car in my backyard? No, that would be rather easy ... Errm, maybe you can clear this up a little
Bhagwan told me not to worry. If i do it'll make me sorry. Alright.

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salvialover24
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Re: Salvia space is just our imagination?

Post by salvialover24 » Fri Jun 07, 2013 7:40 am

minderbinder wrote:
That makes mechanism testable: just program a universal machine to look inward, and compare the physical reality she finds with what we can observe. up to now, it works pretty well. the drawback is that it leads quickly to hard math, the type beyond what we can manage today.
I'm a little thick, i fear - could you provide a "real world" example? When i, as the only machine that's available to me, look inwards, i mention a lot of pictures, words, sounds, and emotions or just what has to be described as feelings. some inter-related, some single, so to say - what to compare all these "objects" to in the physical reality? The car in my mind with the car in my backyard? No, that would be rather easy ... Errm, maybe you can clear this up a little
No, you are not thick, it just not quite easy. But salvia can give you a hint, as it leads naturally to a deep looking inward. Then you must quiet your imagination, and retain only what really convince you. The path, made very short, is that you see first the fixed point of the doubt, which is the existence of your consciousness, then you see the numbers and elementary arithmetical truth (no need of so much salvia for that of course), then you see that "you" (the little ego, not the higher self!) belongs to alternate realities and you get a picture of some sort of their interconnections, and what is invariant there, etc.

Now, the amazing but harder things to explain, is that if you model the believability of the machine by its arithmetical representation in the brain or the computer, or in any universal machine, then, what I say above, or its description, can be obtained by the mathematics of self-reference, discovered by Gödel and others. In particular the machine too discovers the fixed point of the doubt (Descartes' existence, or consciousness), the "parallel realities" and its mathematics (which already admit a nice "quantum physics" interpretation), etc.

You see, with computationalism we have a choice between two red pills: 40 years of mathematical logic or 4 minutes of salvia :mrgreen: :geek: :mrgreen:

If you want more, read and bump the UDA thread, or consult this paper where I explain the UDA and the Arithmetical UDA (the "machine's interview"):

http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/public ... tract.html

Pierz made a good summary of the main non mathematical part of it (the UDA):

http://clubofsc.blogspot.be/2011/08/my- ... ument.html

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minderbinder
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Re: Salvia space is just our imagination?

Post by minderbinder » Fri Jun 07, 2013 12:04 pm

Ha, thanks - i always have to think of the song "Thick as a brick" when running into a wall like that. Never really understood the text when listening to that in my younger years, but the melody and the refrain are still somewhat hardwired :)
The path, made very short, is that you see first the fixed point of the doubt, which is the existence of your consciousness,


Do you mean the doubt is the self or the thing that doubts, or ... sorry if that again sounds a little platitudinous. In all it sounds like some serious tibetan brain magick, as where here
then you see that "you" (the little ego, not the higher self!) belongs to alternate realities and you get a picture of some sort of their interconnections, and what is invariant there, etc.


also the Golden Dawn and sf come in - it's very fascinating and i really wish to have "access" to such alternate realities, Even if that sounds really naive! I'd say in thing like that one has to defy the common "common sense", elseway it's not of much value. And after all, where's the fun in magick if one considers it only an intellectual exercise?

Lots of "sounds" in my post, i wonder if that is sound (oh my, the old jokers last wind) ...

Be that as it may - since monday i have my own little salvia plant, maybe it can give me a push at the right waypoint of the path. Even if i'm not sure if it's wise to consider it's use for a soft brainer like me :D

Thanks a lot for the reply, the UDT is very "mouth watering" to me, even if i don't have the slightest clue why ... very mysterious ... maybe it got something to do with my higher self ...

(sorry for typos - besides all my laptops keyboard is somehow damaged, the "s" is almost out of order)
Bhagwan told me not to worry. If i do it'll make me sorry. Alright.

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salvialover24
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Re: Salvia space is just our imagination?

Post by salvialover24 » Sun Jun 09, 2013 1:07 pm

You should not give salvia to your computer!

Now, UDA is almost without magic by construction, but that's why the magic which remains is pure cristal!

But it asks for some long work, I might come back on this, but .... well, actually I am even a bit anxious as Burningmouth bumped the discussion but seem to have disappear since. Is UDA stronger than salvia? I don't know. What is common is that people react badly very often. And with salvia, if you don't like the "revelation" you have always the solution of summing it up as an hallucination, of the type "what the f.ck", but with UDA once you get the point, well it is harder to forget it, as it is only logic + a reasonable hypothesis (that eventually you can still abandon, but then it looks like wishful thinking).

I dunno. I feel salvia and UDA fits well, but then I am of course biased. Don't hesitate to ask question if you are interested, but do as you feel, and take care of the little plant :)

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