Induced Leaf Mutation

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daivlas
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Induced Leaf Mutation -

Post by daivlas » Sat Jul 25, 2009 2:54 am

Salvia is a very adaptable plant so it stands to reason that it could be forced into some type of mutation under the right conditions. Different types of stress can cause physical changes and eventually changes in DNA which are exhibited when the stress is removed but the mutation remains.

The plant pictured below began to produce forked tipped leaves possibly as a result of being over-pruned and shaped. To test this theory 1 will continually prune this plant early to cause stress and selectively leave the forked tipped leaves to try and increase their occurrence.

The first round of heavy pruning followed by subsequent harvest produced 24 normal leaves and 2 fork tipped leaves, a mutation rate of approximately 8.3%. The harvest of this round will serve as the stress and if the plant can adapt to growing more leaves with the mutation that are left alone to develop into maturity the mutation rate should increase.

1 will update this this thread with either another mutation rate or some sad photos of a dead salvia plant.

You or Someone Who Isn't You should try this at home and post the results here too.
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Sanpas
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Re: Induced Leaf Mutation -

Post by Sanpas » Sat Jul 25, 2009 6:24 am

I have seen plenty of mutations/mutilations in my Salvia's last year, when they got assaulted by all kinds of nasty insects, and weather conditions unheard of in the Sierra Madre Oriental.
I'm very glad they are growing into more normal plants this time, so I'm afraid I won't partake in this pruning experiment of yours. Unless something really bizarre comes out of it, like eyes or arms and legs. =p
But you people do whatever you want. ;)

If the weather is the cause of any mutations to come, I will let you know.
One of my plants was growing some very thick, leathery leaves with deep funky grooves in it, I think over-fertilation or strong salty sea-wind is the cause of that. I have never seen a leaf like that in your pictures though. (good looking plants if I might add)

If you kinda know what you're doing, and care for your plants, they won't sadly die right? ;)
If they do!... :flame:

Buddha2112
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Re: Induced Leaf Mutation -

Post by Buddha2112 » Sat Jul 25, 2009 6:57 pm

Different types of stress can cause physical changes and eventually changes in DNA which are exhibited when the stress is removed but the mutation remains.
LOL, i just noticed that part, sounds to me like some one learned science and evolution from Lamarck :roll:
i dont want to sound like an ass
but go do some learnin
I second that.

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daivlas
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Re: Induced Leaf Mutation -

Post by daivlas » Sun Jul 26, 2009 3:15 pm

If you don't want to sound like an ass then it would be prudent to educate yourself before telling others to "do some learnin". Start with the wikipedia page on mutation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutation

and then maybe work your way through a google search of plant stress response mutations.

It is already clearly established that environmental factors can alter DNA but I did not post this as a tek on how to alter the dna of a plant. It is a method to test the possibility that a mutation could be induced by stress. Whatever results are produced should be able to be duplicated by following the same method. If you would like to contribute something productive then by all means please do. If you don't mind though, please keep the mindless ridicule to yourself.

Thanks

Buddha2112
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Re: Induced Leaf Mutation -

Post by Buddha2112 » Sun Jul 26, 2009 4:08 pm

Environmental factors alter dna... by natural selection. Favorable mutations survive, unfavorable, or non-mutated don't survive. I HIGHLY doubt such a small scale experiment would yield the results you're looking for. Physically clipping leaves to cause stress will only produce a change over time if you have a bunch of plants and find that some respond, and others don't, and that you take the ones that do and keep them alive, continually selecting those that respond better to the stress. You are not changing the DNA AT ALL, you are merely exposing those plants genes, and it's response to stress.

Your citation of wikipedia as scientific knowledge is almost equally laughable, but even the information there does not support your claim. The only causes it says that contribute to mutation are Spontaneous (meaning something fucks up in the dna as it's reproducing) or Induced, which only occur from chemicals and radiation. If you were using pesticides and fertilizers, you may have a point, but you are not, you are simply clipping leaves. A mutation has already been recorded (a REAL mutation) in which the salvia plant becomes six sided as opposed to four, but even then, that lasts only one generation.

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daivlas
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Re: Induced Leaf Mutation -

Post by daivlas » Sun Jul 26, 2009 8:22 pm

I never claimed to be changing the dna, only testing to see if inducing the expression of a mutation by stress was possible. I said that environmental factors and stresses can alter dna, (pesticides, fertilizers, ultraviolet radiation, artificial selection, genetic drift, etc.) and I backed it up with wikipedia to show it is common knowledge that you must have been unaware of. It is laughable that you are agreeing that these factors can cause mutations and also telling me I am wrong in the same post.

If two plants are given the same stress and one exhibits a physiological difference (forked leaves) and the other does not, this could be considered a mutation. Genetic mutations happen for many different reasons but are not always expressed. The idea is to induce the expression of this mutation (if it is one) with a type of stress to see if the rate of expression increases. If it increases on this plant and the same stress does not cause another plant to exhibit this response then it could be considered a mutation.

Telling me that I am not changing the dna of a plant tells me that you are not paying attention. I never claimed that I was doing this. Assuming things things in order to seek out points of contention is not productive and I did not start this thread to spend my time arguing with contentious forum members. The old internet proverb goes something like "arguing on the internet is like running in the special olympics, even if you win you are still retarded." and I think you should find something more productive to do with your time.

This is a small scale experiment and there is no guarantee that it will result in any knowledge increase about mutation expressions induced by environmental stresses but it is better than going around and trying to shit in someone else's thread just because you like to argue. At least the thread is getting bumped to the top though, so thanks, I guess.

Buddha2112
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Re: Induced Leaf Mutation -

Post by Buddha2112 » Sun Jul 26, 2009 8:39 pm

Then it appears I misunderstood you. I apologize, I wasn't trying to shit on your thread, it just seemed you were trying to attain something impossible, which, seemed very ridiculous. My first thought was of Lamarck, and that study on mice, and figuring that cutting off mice tails and continually breeding them would eventually produce shorter tails, and eventually no tail, which I find hilariously stupid. Arguing is fun nonetheless, as it has revealed what you meant, which was hard to understand, seeing as more than one person got the same impression. I misunderstood you and happened to jump at it, something I don't normally do... So honestly I apologize. Internet muscles maybe? At least we're on the same page now, but I still can't understand the purpose of this endeavor on such a small scale? Have you tried propagating clippings of just the forked leaves? Do these leaves have any more/less potency? Or is this just an interest?

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daivlas
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Re: Induced Leaf Mutation -

Post by daivlas » Sun Jul 26, 2009 9:25 pm

No need for apologies, I am not a scientist or a technical writer so my ideas, methods and descriptions are bound to be unclear to anyone who is not myself, and I am sure that I will be "arguing" again. I guess I must enjoy it at some level too or I would not be here responding. Glad to have you on board and I would be very happy to see your results if you or your beagle had any interest and decided to carry out a similar stress test.

Never heard of Lamark until now and his methods are definitely not what I had in mind. If I was to use mice in place of salvia for this test, I guess I would be beating the mice and pulling their hair out until some of them grew a forked tail and then I would increase the beatings and hair pulling until that one grew a forked tongue and extra toes as well.

I would not have expected that excessive pruning could expose a mutation either. The idea and opportunity to experiment presented itself when a small salvia plant that was being over-pruned to produce a tree like shrub started throwing abnormal leaves. The potency of the forked leaves has not been tested against normal leaves and this experiment is probably of no scientific value. The salvia plant does look somewhat unique at this point though. It has a smooth S shaped stem (from wilting and coming back to life), some curved leaves, some forked shaped leaves and it seems tolerant of dry spells.

If a lot of people are interested in this, and hidden mutations are lurking in certain salvia strains and stress can induce their expression, and controlled prolonged expression results in mutation expressive nodes that are able to be cropped and propagated and the mutations remain............ then maybe we will start to see some cool and unusual looking salvia plants in the future. It seems like a long shot and it would take a lot of people and a lot of plants to do anything significant. but who knows. I guess we will see if there is any interest.

Buddha2112
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Re: Induced Leaf Mutation -

Post by Buddha2112 » Sun Jul 26, 2009 10:26 pm

Well, there is a need to apologize, I became an ass for no reason LOL. My ego tends to expand on the intarweb, I usually have it in check, but I jump at things sometimes. I like to woof and howl like that beagle...

As far as stress testing goes, the beagle would rather wait until he has more plants so he can risk the experimentation. He plans on propagating quite a few plants and see how some react to outdoors here in New Hampshire. His main plant has a lot of signs of stress already, and has quite a few 'mottled' leaves. Some are actually folded in half, others have curled up into themselves, but still remain healthy and green, save a few black tips. They're all Paradox strain and are noted for their distinct 'mottled' appearance, so I wonder if this has anything to do with stress, or it's just a uniquely adapting strain. It was one of the first strains to be propagated by seeds, so I'm very interested in how the beagle might carry this out. Granted, the plants he got were cuttings, most definitely, but they seem to produce a lot of nodes in weird places, and have slightly different leaves. I wonder if this has to do with stress, maybe it's a more stress-friendly strain, and that's why it can produce viable seeds? Come winter time, maybe even fall, I know the beagle will cut the lighting schedule to 12/12 and see what happens. By that time he should have a few cuttings to experiment with, this strain seems prime for such an experiment.

Here are some pics of the leaves, they're kind of interesting, and the beagle can't seem to actually perk up the leaves themselves, they seem healthy enough, and he's afraid of over-watering. They looked a lot worse right after shipment, so he considers this as healthy, yet quite different from other salvia plants:

Image

Image

But one thing may be that the plant itself is sick, I noticed some white powdery mildew? It's gradually spread from one side of the base of the stem, to all sides, and is expanding upward? Could this be what is keeping the leaves from fully expanding, or is it harmless?

Image

I'm going to start another thread with more pics specifically for documenting this 'mildew' if that is indeed what it is. I know it's easily treatable, I'll be lending the beagle some hydrogen peroxide, but I've yet to see a reference pic I could show him to actually verify. To note, there is a fan gently breezing all of the plants, and they've been sucking up their mistings. The mist might be part of the mildew issue, so we'll see how things turn out, and once it's gone, see if that may have been causing the leaves to droop as such.

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daivlas
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Re: Induced Leaf Mutation -

Post by daivlas » Mon Jul 27, 2009 2:06 am

I don't think that white stuff on your stems is mildew but I could be wrong. It looks like the trichomes that develop on the plant surface. If you look closely at the 2nd photo I posted you will notice "white powdery stuff" on the stems and leaves.

Good luck with the plants and do post results if you end up with a spare plant that you wouldn't mind sacrificing to stress testing.

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