Can One have a Psychedelic/Spiritual Exp without Psychedelics

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Flapjack
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Re: Can One have a Psychedelic/Spiritual Exp without Psychedelics -

Post by Flapjack » Thu Aug 25, 2011 8:57 pm

isnt' your 'ego' like your personality though, despite being a made up psychology term. Why would anyone want that destroyed? Is that even possible? Or do you mean something else? I don't really understand what it is.

You mean like a sense of entitlement? Sexual desire?

I guess in the strictest sense it would be your self-esteem, sense of self worth, or purpose. Should it really be completely crushed?

How do you benefit? I don't understand this ego destroying thing.
Last edited by Flapjack on Thu Aug 25, 2011 9:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Beelzebozo
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Re: Can One have a Psychedelic/Spiritual Exp without Psychedelics -

Post by Beelzebozo » Thu Aug 25, 2011 10:17 pm

Flapjack wrote:isnt' your 'ego' like your personality though, despite being a made up psychology term. Why would anyone want that destroyed? Is that even possible? Or do you mean something else? I don't really understand what it is.

You mean like a sense of entitlement? Sexual desire?

I guess in the strictest sense it would be your self-esteem, sense of self worth, or purpose. Should it really be completely crushed?

How do you benefit? I don't understand this ego destroying thing.
When I refer to ego, I'm speaking of mind, the conditioned set of desires, actions, and dislikes that develops alongside one's body and its experiences accumulated over a lifetime. This is in contrast to that which observes mind! When you think a thought, who is observing that thought?

You are that. The unknown. The One, undivided, flowing but still.

I never said the ego was to be destroyed! There's no reason to do that, it'll only come back anyway. It isn't an enemy to be destroyed, it is a little, pitiable thing to be guided kindly but sternly.

You see, the problem is that egos tend to develop bad habits, they desire things that can never be "got." They suffer, they become disappointed, they get frantic and desperate. What I am saying is that YOU are not the ego, and until you stop identifying with it, you will do whatever it wants you to do, no matter how ludicrous that thing might be. The ego can make itself miserable even in the midst of the most beautiful and blissful circumstances imaginable.

When you're feeling alright, then you say, "To hell with enlightenment! This is okay by me." Well, okay, but the ego is a fickle thing, its moods change like the weather. As long as you think you ARE IT, you will go where it goes, and it can go to some incredibly dreary places. For me, I didn't give up on it until it brought my entire life to a halt. It was so feverish and panicky, worried about death, worried about insanity, worried about the unknown. The body became practically paralyzed with the weight of fear, the pounds fell off of it until it began looking skeletal. When I finally had enough suffering, I realized that I was identifying with a little wave on the surface of a vast and peaceful ocean.

If you can get to the point where you see who you really are, you will realize you are perfectly and absolutely free to an extant that will blow your mind. Free from the mind's troubles, totally. Fear and dissatisfaction and depression pass over you like wind on the ocean. The natural state of the pure, unadorned being is bliss.

There is no practice that can get you there, you're there now. How much will it take you to see? That's the only question.

Unfortunately I can't explain this to you intellectually, because then it is only understood by the mind. This isn't an intellectual truth, it is a state of awareness. From it flow all good things.

This is not a code of ethics, this is not a system of belief, nor is it a paradigm of thought; it is an awareness. The choices of what to do, what's good, what's not, it all flows from that.
Last edited by Beelzebozo on Thu Aug 25, 2011 10:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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MindGarden
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Re: Can One have a Psychedelic/Spiritual Exp without Psychedelics -

Post by MindGarden » Thu Aug 25, 2011 11:40 pm

In my experience, certainly one can have and entheogenic experience without chemical / plant intake. Certainly, our plant allies can take us places and teach us things in their own unique ways - but the human organism is wired with the potential for many different states of consciousness, and many ways to experience the divinity of being.

Our human cultural history is filled with techniques and practices to reveal the non-ordinary aspects of reality. Meditiation, shamanic drumming, chanting, music, prayer, dance - just to name a few ways people open the flower of reality.

Some things really crack the head open, some just change our eyes subtly.

Sometimes I think a goal of the spiritual journey is to erase the boundries between these mystic / psychedelic experiences and ordinary reality. To perceive and experience things on multiple levels simultaneously - and know that it is all one.

There is no practice that can get you there, you're there now. How much will it take you to see? That's the only question.
:) d'accord
Lay down all thoughts, surrender to the void, it is shining

Flapjack
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Re: Can One have a Psychedelic/Spiritual Exp without Psychedelics -

Post by Flapjack » Fri Aug 26, 2011 4:28 am

mmm i dont think i've ever had a big one of those, but sometimes it's unavoidable and we all make mistakes. I'm not God.

Encouraging words though

you kind of relate it with the emotional body though. I do have a big one of those, but I try to put myself in other people's shoes and analyze my feelings. Even try to put myself in a birds shoes or a deer, ever try that? What it's like to be an ant, do they feel pain? My feelings are always there, though I really try not to feel anger, but I welcome fear at certain times because of the awe it can bring.

A lot of these feelings are instinctual though and there to help you, but not all of them. I'd rather be an emotional mess than a steril peice of crap.

Idk though the concept of ego is still pretty abstract, but I think I understand a little better.

Everyday is pretty much a struggle no matter who you are, but if you try to be greatful for each day, count your blessings and thank God, it makes your problems seem trivial.

Still lots more to discover about myself! About people! About the Earth! I'm out of the cage brothers!
Last edited by Flapjack on Fri Aug 26, 2011 5:00 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Rising Spirit
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Re: Can One have a Psychedelic/Spiritual Exp without Psychedelics -

Post by Rising Spirit » Fri Aug 26, 2011 10:29 am

Beelzebozo wrote:When I refer to ego, I'm speaking of mind, the conditioned set of desires, actions, and dislikes that develops alongside one's body and its experiences accumulated over a lifetime. This is in contrast to that which observes mind! When you think a thought, who is observing that thought?

You are that. The unknown. The One, undivided, flowing but still.
Nicely said, friend. I also feel that the ego is merely the superficial aspect of self, which is connected to the circumstantial flow of events happening to the witness of one's physical, emotional and intellectual experience.

The witness to these phenomena is the Inner Pilot or Soul and exists on another plane, altogether from the restrictions of the human ego. Since our culture has grown so dependent on the importance of the impermanent ego, we have unlearned our innermost connection to the Omniself or Greater Self. Too much fixation on the surface of our awareness is most unwise and a path bound for suffering and disillusionment.

When I finally had enough suffering, I realized that I was identifying with a little wave on the surface of a vast and peaceful ocean.

If you can get to the point where you see who you really are, you will realize you are perfectly and absolutely free to an extant that will blow your mind. Free from the mind's troubles, totally. Fear and dissatisfaction and depression pass over you like wind on the ocean. The natural state of the pure, unadorned being is bliss.
Yes... I do agree, our truest core being is a limitless field of indivisible consciousness. An understanding by which we awaken to the present moment in all of it's infinite glory. An identification with the unity and singularity of our deepest awareness of being.

Perhaps this is what Einstein was seeking within his Theory of a Unified Energy Field? The level of consciousness where the finite soul touches infinite God? I believe this is what Sri Aurobindo referred to as Supraconsciousness.

Awareness of this is grand quintessence is accessible through the steady training of sitting or moving meditation, the use of entheogens, near death experiences or the spontaneous flow of spiritual current, which might be labeled as, "sudden enlightenment".

Once immersed in this state of transparency of mind, all transitory aspects of existence are seen for what they truly are... the superficial workings of the mirage we each dream, as individuals. We do need this capacity for delusion, more or less, to survive in the material plane but we must never let it master our intent nor control our level of consciousness.

We are born to awaken to our eternal nature, so this is what we must focus upon, despite the data received by the surface of our awareness... the EGO STUFF.
There is no practice that can get you there, you're there now. How much will it take you to see? That's the only question.
Ultimately, I agree with this assessment, for how can one practice being, when one simply is? Still, in my experience, it has been the 37 years spent in regular sitting meditation, with varied degrees of extreme, which has gradually loosened my ego's hold on my mind and perceptual parameters.

Psychedelics alone cannot do this for a human being. If, however, one becomes egotistical about the practice of meditation... this is another trap for the Spirit Dancer and something which must be burned in the fire of self inquiry, as well.
Unfortunately I can't explain this to you intellectually, because then it is only understood by the mind. This isn't an intellectual truth, it is a state of awareness. From it flow all good things.

This is not a code of ethics, this is not a system of belief, nor is it a paradigm of thought; it is an awareness. The choices of what to do, what's good, what's not, it all flows from that.
Very true. Bravissimo! The act of thinking is dependent of subject and object... essentially duality. An idea or observation ignites a series of conceptualizations about this and that. Enlightenment seems like it would be the silencing of such polarized perceptions of the universe... for All is One.

Reason must be stilled and ego-self must be frozen, in a manner of speaking, even if only within the parameters of a temporary experience. Rationale is arguably locked into the confines of subjective cognition and there is no possibility of cognition, when embracing the Void.

Ironically, when all is light... even the light itself ceases to be perceived as anything other than self. In sublime emptiness we become full. Paradox follows our quest, even as we embrace periods of "ego death", as we approach the transcendental.

Awakening is not a thought process, as you wisely state, it is a focus upon the insubstantial essence... the Divine Being. Within this vacuum, the spiritual vibration draws the mind of the traveler into a state of thoughtlessness.

That state of awareness which the Zen Buddhist call No Mind. In the absence of the brain's proclivity to label and rationalize everything about the constant flow of perceptual data... a new kind of understanding about the nature of "reality" is realized.

A consciousness is thus born, which is not fixed to the individual nature of self, rather, the interconnected Oneness of all being. In this transparent state of awareness, the relative ego is merged into the stillness of the absolute Self. thus, facilitating the awakening of Samadhi/Satori/Divine Rapture.

This leads the pilgrim directly to the mirrored self of the ego, the unified field of being, often described by space pilgrims as... The Godhead.

It's a beautiful thing to share this most magical of truths, this Omniscient reality... this moment of union. This moment of now. Namaste. 8-)
Last edited by Rising Spirit on Fri Aug 26, 2011 10:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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nassimelyc
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Re: Can One have a Psychedelic/Spiritual Exp without Psyched

Post by nassimelyc » Sat Oct 06, 2012 2:08 pm

Here's a funny idea : Eat magic mushrooms and get into a deep meditative state while in a lucid dream.

aurora_borealis
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Re: Can One have a Psychedelic/Spiritual Exp without Psyched

Post by aurora_borealis » Sat Oct 06, 2012 6:50 pm

Beelzebozo wrote:
Flapjack wrote:isnt' your 'ego' like your personality though, despite being a made up psychology term. Why would anyone want that destroyed? Is that even possible? Or do you mean something else? I don't really understand what it is.

You mean like a sense of entitlement? Sexual desire?

I guess in the strictest sense it would be your self-esteem, sense of self worth, or purpose. Should it really be completely crushed?

How do you benefit? I don't understand this ego destroying thing.
When I refer to ego, I'm speaking of mind, the conditioned set of desires, actions, and dislikes that develops alongside one's body and its experiences accumulated over a lifetime. This is in contrast to that which observes mind! When you think a thought, who is observing that thought?

You are that. The unknown. The One, undivided, flowing but still.

I never said the ego was to be destroyed! There's no reason to do that, it'll only come back anyway. It isn't an enemy to be destroyed, it is a little, pitiable thing to be guided kindly but sternly.

You see, the problem is that egos tend to develop bad habits, they desire things that can never be "got." They suffer, they become disappointed, they get frantic and desperate. What I am saying is that YOU are not the ego, and until you stop identifying with it, you will do whatever it wants you to do, no matter how ludicrous that thing might be. The ego can make itself miserable even in the midst of the most beautiful and blissful circumstances imaginable.

When you're feeling alright, then you say, "To hell with enlightenment! This is okay by me." Well, okay, but the ego is a fickle thing, its moods change like the weather. As long as you think you ARE IT, you will go where it goes, and it can go to some incredibly dreary places. For me, I didn't give up on it until it brought my entire life to a halt. It was so feverish and panicky, worried about death, worried about insanity, worried about the unknown. The body became practically paralyzed with the weight of fear, the pounds fell off of it until it began looking skeletal. When I finally had enough suffering, I realized that I was identifying with a little wave on the surface of a vast and peaceful ocean.

If you can get to the point where you see who you really are, you will realize you are perfectly and absolutely free to an extant that will blow your mind. Free from the mind's troubles, totally. Fear and dissatisfaction and depression pass over you like wind on the ocean. The natural state of the pure, unadorned being is bliss.

There is no practice that can get you there, you're there now. How much will it take you to see? That's the only question.

Unfortunately I can't explain this to you intellectually, because then it is only understood by the mind. This isn't an intellectual truth, it is a state of awareness. From it flow all good things.

This is not a code of ethics, this is not a system of belief, nor is it a paradigm of thought; it is an awareness. The choices of what to do, what's good, what's not, it all flows from that.

I know what you're speaking of, for I've been in this state of awareness; however, I find that it's difficult to maintain 24/7. Do you? Isn't this what could be referred to as the "Christ Consciousness"? What about if you desire to maintain this particular awareness for your entire life? Is that the ego's desire or is that your true being's desire (or should it more correctly be titled an "urge" in this case)?

Sometimes, if you look in the mirror at yourself long enough and just clear your mind, you feel that awareness. You feel as though you are really one with everything. Then, the questions come in..."What is going on? What or who am I looking at? That's not me!" Quite an experience really. You won't feel the same for the rest of the day.

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Re: Can One have a Psychedelic/Spiritual Exp without Psyched

Post by nepalnt21 » Mon Oct 08, 2012 11:08 am

try going out into the wilderness with nothing but some jugs of water for a few days

Sphere
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Re: Can One have a Psychedelic/Spiritual Exp without Psyched

Post by Sphere » Sun Oct 28, 2012 10:31 pm

I had a experience kicked off by emotional stress many years ago, well, a couple of them, so it does happen to people. Also, if you look into Stanislav Groff's web site they have developed a breathing technique which can help produce non-ordinary states of mind.

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flickedbic
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Re: Can One have a Psychedelic/Spiritual Exp without Psyched

Post by flickedbic » Thu Nov 01, 2012 12:16 am

What about if you desire to maintain this particular awareness for your entire life? Is that the ego's desire or is that your true being's desire (or should it more correctly be titled an "urge" in this case)?
Desire is avoidance/seperation so probly from the ego :) An urge/ a calling sounds nice and the experience is something to really be grateful for.
try going out into the wilderness with nothing but some jugs of water for a few days
Going in to wilderness and drinking fresh spring-water and tea with it from "superior herbs" of TCM such as Reishi (Duanwood) and/or other Spirit herbs.

"As a Shen (Spirit) tonic, nothing compares to Reishi. It is simply the greatest Shen tonic of them all."

Could use with Qigong and/or Yoga and Ayurvedic herbal methods.


I must again re-implore the discoverer to see these possibilities with NLP; even by utilizing a recording by Richard Bandler to initiate a psychedelic/spiritual event.

All these things could probably be combined in new an powerful ways.

One might not go to live in a cave with nature; but still culture the awareness me thinks.
All readable matter in the above post is ficticious.

Any similarities to real life are purely coincidental.

Without prejudice.

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