Datura Threshold Effects

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Frank Blank
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Re: Datura Threshold Effects -

Post by Frank Blank » Mon Feb 19, 2007 7:49 pm

Sounds like he got it from his own personal experience. Which Datura was it Tron?
Last edited by Frank Blank on Mon Feb 19, 2007 8:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Burning_Copal
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Re: Datura Threshold Effects -

Post by Burning_Copal » Mon Feb 19, 2007 7:49 pm

I'll agree that things never are quite the same after interacting with these plants, but my views are different then Trons on the matter, I would not consider these plants anymore a devils weed , or demonic in influence then anyothers, they do however have the potential to kill you if you dont know how much you've taken, and they also have the potential to induce some very physicaly / mentaly unpleasent things , even if they dont kill you.

I'm not going to recomend a dosage for this as its useless and irrelevant what one person prepares for themselves for the most part, in comparison to someone else, best advice, if your just becoming fermilar with the plant, consume it in the smallest incriments you can possibly measure down to , and adjust till you've gotten some idea what it is these plants will do to you.

There are times, and conditions, that can result in a single seed being quite suffecient . The variablity is broad though. I'm speaking of Datura Wrightii here, each species is different, each cultivar different, each seed grown plant different, but seeds typicaly resemble mother plant in almost all ways, growing conditions aside. So thats some gauge with a new seed grown plant.

As far as suggestions, I would suggest without a reason, not to bother the plant, but if your going to, make sure you have water, your not dehydrated prior, and you dont dehydrate during the 14-24+ hours, if you can find a sitter thats willing to sit with you for that long, and NOT TALK, that may be a good thing, if your not fortunate enough to have someone willing to be silent for that long, a sitter is probobly going to result in considerable frustration. A quiet place, or atleast quiet from human voices, is very preferable, nature is fine as well if you dont have a tendancy to get up too much and wander / get yourself injured.

I'm not sure what exactly you were trying to acomplish with the plants, but I'd suggest avoiding the dosages that result in blackouts / delerium. The dosages required for the plant to quiet the mind, is not very much. And this is probobly preferable, as the mind stays that way for several days. Approached correctly there is no reason for these plants to be ' devils weeds' I'd also suggest if the plant was to be consumed, plan for the experience to start right around sunset, and plan not to be around any bright lights, because it can actually hurt at times, you want it dark, relativly quiet ( no human voices, no TV, no radio ) hyperawareness of the enviroment is all fine and well, unless there is already alot of stimuli, then it can become un nerving, my experienc atleast. Nature is fine as far as I'm concerned, caution will all things, dont throw it out the window when interacting with these plants, and doing so, dosent require you to throw it out either.

jse
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Re: Datura Threshold Effects -

Post by jse » Mon Feb 19, 2007 9:02 pm

Thanks for the replys, I only have seeds at the moment I tried growing some a while back but couldent get them to germinate i guess I will try again this spring. I am going to try with just one seed as a first dose and see how it goes then add 1 seed to the dosage to reach my required effects. Thanks for the advice Tron I guess im going to write warnings on my arms in big black marker pen incase I end up in a hospital.

Tron
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Re: Datura Threshold Effects -

Post by Tron » Mon Feb 19, 2007 9:08 pm

Yes, thanks for asking. Sources are always important, and I competely understand why you would ask for them. Now, ever since SWIM's experience I've done extensive research on the subject, and naturally I can't remember where every bit of information came from, but there are a few sites I remember in particular, as well as some I've found by punching the info into a search engine. I'll do the best I can to account for as much of the information I shared as possible. Here we go...

This one is where most of the information about the Atrilrium (physostigmine salicylate) came from. This information is not exclusive to this site by any means, you should be able to find it plenty of places elsewhere, but this was the site that first tought me this information after SWIM's experience, and it's been a valuable source to me since, so this one was easy to find...

http://www.pshm.org/datura_poisoning.shtml

These are some sites that will support what I said about the various causes of death from datura. I don't believe they are where I originally got the information, but I punched "datura poisoning" into a search engine, and I found these. Circulatory failure, cardiovascular collapse, and respiratory depression are all accounted for in these plus one I didn't mention - central nervous system depression. The only one that I haven't account for here is the cardiac arrest, but I had it lumped in my mind with all the rest, and they are true, so I can confidently say that cardiac arrest is a possible death from datura poisoning as well.

http://www.medilexicon.com/medicaldi...ry.php?t=70652
http://www.biology-online.org/dictio...tura_poisoning
http://www.indegene.com/Main/Info/in...aPoisoning.asp

Now, I have looked around to find evidence of the eye-related damage information I gave, and I have not been successful an finding any yet. I remember learning this from a book originally, but I also remember seeing it on the internet somewhere, so I will continue to look through search results and so on and I'll will post it when/if I find it. Until then I will naturally understand that the information may not be considered fact. However, there is general evidence of datura screwing up your eyesight. All you have to do is go to Erowid.org and read some experience reports, and easily half of them mention the person not being able to see right for a week or two to come. It is the exact parts of the eyeball that datura damages (retina, optic nerve, rods and cones, ect.) that I am not yet able to account for. I assure you, however, the information did come from somewhere, so as I said, I will continue to check around.

Any substance can damage the kidneys and increase the chances of kidney failure (from caffeine to nicotine and so forth) because your kidneys have to work, and in turn get weaker, to get them out of your body, but I will also spend some time trying to find some sources to post for the information given about this, as well as the liver and heart damage.

So I'll post this for now and, as I said, I'll continue to look for sources to support to eye, heart, and liver damage information I provided. If there is anything I have not mentioned that you would like me to reply about, please let me know.

Enjoy your night...

-- Tron
Last edited by Tron on Mon Feb 19, 2007 9:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Tron
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Re: Datura Threshold Effects -

Post by Tron » Mon Feb 19, 2007 9:20 pm

Frank Blank, datura stramonium for the most part (in SWIM's case and most the others), although I know at least one (I think two) of the people I mentioned ingested datura innoxia.

Yes, Frank, the opinions I expressed in my post were clearly just that - opinions. Like Burning_Copal says and like I said myself in my post - not everyone views the plant as I do, and this is understandable. Like Copal says, if approached correctly, the plant generally does not need to act as a devil's plant. However, if you have experienced what I have experienced, you know that that side of it is always there, waiting to take you if you are careless. I'm not saying that everyone should view the plant as the devil herself - I'm simply saying that's what it will always be to me. There are also many others who feel this way. Read up on some experience reports on erowid.org - one person refers to Datura as the Dark Temptress, which sounds a little strange even to me (like some dungeons and dragons shit or something haha), but all jokes aside, many people who have had a full-blown datura experience have undeniably felt a connection between it and pure evil. Personally, I do not believe in god or Satan, as I have never seen them or any evidence of their existence, but I do believe in this plant, and I do believe in this pure evil that is held within it, because unlike god or Satan SWIM has seen this evil himself, and SWIM has felt it inside him ever since. Again, as Copal said, this evil does not always have to manifest itself if you are smart in going about your experience, but to me, it will always be there.

As far as the facts I presented go, they are from research I did after being so awe-struck by SWIM's experience, and as I wrote in the last post, I will continue to search for sources to account for the facts that I have not already done so for.

Anyways, jse - my best wishes are with you, sincerely. PLEASEE be careful, friend, and let us know how it goes...

-- Tron
Last edited by Tron on Mon Feb 19, 2007 9:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Burning_Copal
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Re: Datura Threshold Effects -

Post by Burning_Copal » Mon Feb 19, 2007 9:26 pm

tropane Solanaceae act generaly as vasicodialters Tron, thats one of the reasons why they may damage the eyes overtime. The dosages hospitols typicaly see people end up there as a result of are usually overdoasges , far behond what may be of benifit to the individual.

The information you presented is sound though Tron, in regards to the effects of the plants on the body, its not a safe thing its not a healthy thing by anymeans, but such side effects can be markedly reduced by limiting the interaction with the plant to times when one feels its actually nessecary, and by limiting the dosage to subdelerium levels.

and jse, I do not know how you planed on consuming the seeds ( I'm not suggesting you do, nor deriding you for doing so ) but if you are consuming them orally, there are some things to keep in mind, there are effects that can be felt very soon after oral injestion atleast with Datura wrightii seeds, these are not the primary effects, after absorption, 2-4 hours is in my experience how long it takes for the onset of the experience , at which point the physical / mental sensations remain that way for sometime.

If your going to consume it oraly, make sure your stomach is empty , as that will speed absorption, and give a better idea of how much you may have actually consumed, and would strongly suggest the first time through, you wait atleast 4 hours after the initial dosage before even considering increasing it. I've heard of many people consuming something, waiting half ah our to a hour ' feeling nothing' increasing it again, then all hell breaks loose.

Another method of consumption rather then drinking the fluid is to drop, uncrushed , whole seeds, into a vessel of boiling water, heated on a stove to rolling boil , or microwave in lue of stove, and then breathing in the steam. The cooled water may also be drank after it ceases emiting steam, however the onset of effects from that are much more rapid then when drank, as it is a alternate method of respritory absorption, as opposed to smoking. I'm not suggesting you do any of these as I said, but there are alternatives, first time through I'd also advise against consuming anypart of the plant in a solid form, that is , whole seeds , ground seeds, crushed seeds suspended it water. Experiences where solid plant matter ends up in digestive tract last much longer then other methods. None of these are ' safe ' but some methods less likely to induce harm then others, the steam method is a prefered method for myself.

In anycase, if you do decide to go down any of thoes roads, best of luck, and toss fear out the window, but not caution, caution is good, fear is very counter productive with tropane solanaceae, at best.

and Tron, I'll agree , there are experiences that can result from these plants, more resembling the common concept of hell, then anything I think a living human would experience. I've experienced it on a few ocassions, though that was intentionaly to confront such things and resolve them, absolutely no fun at all. ( the point not being fun with these anyways )
Last edited by Burning_Copal on Mon Feb 19, 2007 9:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Frank Blank
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Re: Datura Threshold Effects -

Post by Frank Blank » Mon Feb 19, 2007 9:31 pm

Hey Tron, there are no absolutes in this realm. I come from a Pennsylvania Dutch background and some of our magical practices include the verbalization of spoken charms. This one may help you, it is used to protect you from and to remove from you the Evil Eye (I'm serious):

Here is one to protect from or remove the evil eye:

I stand with Christ, who commanded evil spirits out of
pigs, cursing them to be dashed against the rocks
below,
As Christ commanded Satan, so do I, calling upon
Jesus' name
In the name of Jesus Christ, who came to save us from
Eve's sin,
Do I release thee of all foulness
Thou has encompassed this child of God's glory
In the name of the four apostles,
Do I surround you with angels who shall protect you.
Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John stand by you.
Go forth now free of all evil,
And be sure of your salvation through Jesus' blood
Amen. Amen. Amen.

Its best to face North and repeat this three times with pause between.

from KARL HERR, "Hex and Spellwork of the Pennsylvania Dutch"

Tron
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Re: Datura Threshold Effects -

Post by Tron » Mon Feb 19, 2007 10:05 pm

Burning_Copal wrote: and Tron, I'll agree , there are experiences that can result from these plants, more resembling the common concept of hell, then anything I think a living human would experience. I've experienced it on a few ocassions, though that was intentionaly to confront such things and resolve them, absolutely no fun at all. ( the point not being fun with these anyways )
It's funny you say that copal - this was my exact motivation as well. I did not like the idea of keeping myself sheltered from any aspect of existence, no matter how painful or horrible it was - I wanted to face it down, confront it, and resolve it, as you said. I don't know about you, but I didn't resolve much of anything, although I definitely acheived the 'lack of sheltering' I set out for, that's for sure.

Frank Blank - thank you, sincerely. I appreciate your taking the time to put that out there for me. It's not along the lines of my usual methods for working out such issues, but I'm open to trying anything, and I'm serious when I say I intend to try it out. Thank you, friend - much appreciated.

Copal - thanks for your follow-up thoughts...

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Burning_Copal
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Re: Datura Threshold Effects -

Post by Burning_Copal » Mon Feb 19, 2007 10:26 pm

I think in the end, geting the ' shelter' torn down , was the resolution, a extreme way of shaking myself out of a shell and psychological numb I was in for about a decade.

I wondered when osmond and his collueges were testing various psychadelics on themselves in an attempt to induce a schizophrenic like state, if the psychadelics were the things to acomplish this, the hyperawareness of stimuli, and many of the other more common things people experience as a result of these plants , fit the diagnosis of schizophrenia perfectly, psychadelic states do not. ( Having experienced what ever it is they call schizophrenia, in a classic sense when I was younger ) Strangely it was the experiences with Toloache, that finaly snaped me back into reality enough to pull my life and mind back together, and have done so. Its a humbling thing to remember, and everytime I even look at Toloache, I'm reminded, and very thankful.

Respect is a key with these plants ( and with any living thing ) they are very powerful medicine , in the sense of actually healing. They are hard on the body though, and at this point, that is more concerning then the mental state for myself. Treated with respect, psychologicaly it is quite a catylst for healing, but physicaly it will always take its toll, long term even in lower dosages I'd guess would be the case too, Its the delerium like experiences that typicaly acompany the near physical death of the body, which is what undoubtedly wreaks havoc on the body. So long as that point isent reached, or if having reached and survived , and not gone back to again, its probobly not a quick death sentance , but like many other things in this world, is not healthy in the long term that much is sure. A price for everything.

I guess I just have a special place for these plants in my life. I've been surrounded by them more or less constantly for some years now, even now I still overwinter one along with my cacti in bedroom. I wouldent be doing that with something I felt was evil :) But understandably many people do have such a view , but many people typicaly consume far more then is required when they first become interested, and far more then they probobly expected to experience as a result.

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sunsnail
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Re: Datura Threshold Effects -

Post by sunsnail » Mon Feb 19, 2007 10:40 pm

I know nothing, but this is what I would do.

If you want to experiment, harvest a lot of plant material, and thoroughly mix it. This should distribute the alkaloids evenly. Now you can experiment with small doses without worrying about variation in alkaloid content.

Again, this plant probably creates alkaloids when dead too or some crazy shit ;)

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